Need help..name Taitz

[udomaecker]

Hello,
I hope somebody here speaks english...
I have an ancestor, Caroline Taitz, who was born 1829 in Hargla/Taiwola.
I found her birth record, her father is Karel Taitz
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=17 ... b4c9a0f91e
Now, I have problems to read these records (the latvian on the other hand are easy to read, but the estonian are extremely difficult). Is "Hip" her mother? And what is the first word before Karel's name?

Then I looked for a wedding of Karel Taitz. I found a wedding between a Karel Taitz with a Hip in 1825. But I can't read anything else in there. What is her maiden name? What does the other stuff mean?

Also, I browsed the Hargla records for a birth of Karel Taitz. And it seems there are two births of a Karel in the year 1796. Now who could it be...?
page 85 and 86 of the URL above.


I hope somebody can help me.
Thanks in advance
Udo Maecker
(a German with baltic ancestors, who now lives in the US)

[avagula]

Hi,

1. Hip is her mother indeed
2. Before Karels name is in this case profession, I think it is Tischler in German.
3. can you please refer to according page? (anyways, in year 1825 there were no maiden names, because people got family names a year later, usually there is fathers name or hutors name where the bride was working)
4. Seems like the first one (85) is right, because one of the godfathers is from hutor Taitzi, but this only a wild guess. You have to follow the movement of people between hutors via 'soul revisions', beginning to 1826, then 1816, then 1811 (male ones only) - from these revisions you should find fathers forename - and then in 1795 revision it is possible to find out where Karels father lived in 1795. Anayways only knowing the fathers name may help to detect the right child.

[Katsa]

I try to translate (most of the records are kind of mixture of German and Estonian):
The birth record of Caroline:
V(ater) – father Tischler – cabinetmaker Karel Taitz, M(utter) – mother Hip (this is the first name) Gv Gevatter – godparents 1. Fräulein – miss Jenny and 2. Constance von Derfelden 3. Amtmann – clerk Schmidt
The marriage record of Karel and Hip:
Tislar – cabinetmaker Karel Taitz
Törwasse Kusta Sissaski t. Hip – Törwasse (or nowadays probably Tõrvase) is the name of the place (or farm), Kusta – first name of the father, Sissaski (nowadays probably Sisask) – last name, t. - daughter, Hip – first name of the bride

To find out the right Karel you have to retrieve some other sources, e. g. the Personalbuch. I've found the whole family here:
Saaga EAA.1295.1.754:163?19,717,1151,427,0

Your Karel is born on 10th January and his father is Tarto Andri (Tarto – name of the place, Andri – first name – and they did not have any family names these times), so the birth record on the page 85 should be the right one.

[udomaecker]

@avagula and @ Katsa
Thanks so very much!! I almost gave up a few months ago, yesterday I thought I give it shot...but still, I couldn't decyfer it

But thanks to you I made a step forward.

Katsa, thanks for the register. I previously found the register for the other Karel Taitz, but the one that married Marri.

I will check into the data the two of you gave me and will ask more questions later...

[udomaecker]

Your Karel is born on 10th January and his father is Tarto Andri (Tarto – name of the place, Andri – first name – and they did not have any family names these times), so the birth record on the page 85 should be the right one.

1) So Karel's parents are Andri Taitz and An?
I'm a little confused about "and they did not have any family names these times". Did people not have last names, or were last names just not mentioned in the records?

2) And Hip's last name is Sissaski? Would I find the marriage and birth of her parents in the same books as well?

[avagula]

In Livonia people got family names about ~1825, in some parishes earlier but not much. Earlier they just didnt have last names. This makes the research in Estonia difficult, but interesting . Think on Iceland, they dont have last names even today.

2. yes, looks like in this parish they already had names in 1825. Sisask (as written today) or Sissask was her maiden name. By the way, in Võru dialect Sisask means Nightingale.

[udomaecker]

@Katsa
I checked the death date that is mentioned in Karel Taitz's register, and I found Hip's death note. It mentions the name Karli. Is that a female name?
And Kusta is not mentioned...

http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=17 ... 49b3f8fcc3

[Katsa]

The death record of Hip:

Konnok. +Krüger Karl's Wb Hip Taitz

Konnok. is abbreviation for a place name, perhaps Konnoküla or smth. (I'm not that familiar with this area), Krüger – innkeeper, „+“ before that means, that he is dead, Karl – alternative form for the first name Karel (Karel=Karl), Wb. - Weib – wife Hip Taitz

It seems, that later on his life this Karel/Karl was a innkeeper. An innkeeper was at a higher position on the social scale than a peasant, perhaps this is the reason why the name Karel (which is a common Estonian name) turns to Karl (which sounds more German).

At the time, when Estonian peasants didn't have family names, a female was almost always identified through a man. She was somebody's daughter before she was married, then she became somebody's wife and at the end sometimes somebody's widow. In the death record Hip is Karel/Karl's wife (or actually she should be widow), not Kusta's daughter anymore – she just didn't belong to Kusta's family.

[Riina.Kallas]

Dieser Krug lag in Konnuküla (zwischen Mõniste und Kuutsi).

[udomaecker]

Dieser Krug lag in Konnuküla (zwischen Mõniste und Kuutsi).

Danke, Rinna.Kallas
Weisst du wo "Tarto" ist oder war? Oder ist das eine andere Schreibweise von Tartu?

[Riina.Kallas]

Die Stadt Tartu war damals noch Dorpat Diese Tarto/Tartu war doch eine Gesindesname (zB. hier: Saaga EAA.1865.2.2/6:20?245,1137,190,72,0) Wo diese Gesinde war, weiss ich leider nicht.
Taits-Familie ist auch hier: Saaga EAA.1865.1.293:68

[udomaecker]

Tarto ist wohl eine Gemeinde nahe Taiwola/Taheva. Hab es im Personalregister gefunden.

[Riina.Kallas]

Tarto Gesinde: Saaga EAA.1865.2.1/5:27?1294,1042,1068,143,0 und um 1795 war Karel's Vater Andre dort Wirth.
Riina

[udomaecker]

Tarto Gesinde: Saaga EAA.1865.2.1/5:27?1294,1042,1068,143,0 und um 1795 war Karel's Vater Andre dort Wirth.
Riina

Ich kann das leider nicht entziffern. Kannst du mir sagen was da steht?
Hatte Andri da schon Kinder? Und was bedeuten die Zahlen? Das Alter? War er 1795 41 Jahre alt? Und seine Frau 35?

[avagula]

Das ist recht. Und sie hatten eine Tochter, Kattri, 15 Jahre alt in Jahr 1795. Es ist möglich das sie hatten mehr Kinder, geboren zwischen 1782 und 1795 aber sie sind gestorben oder weg (mögliche Weise in anderen Gesinden als Jungen or Mädchen)

[udomaecker]

Wie findet ihr die Daten so schnell? Ich durchsuche Seite fuer Seite, und das dauert sehr lange. Und erfolgreich bin ich trotzdem nicht.

Und war er Wirt in Tarto, oder einem anderen Ort?
Und wenn die Tochter Kattri 1795 15 Jahre alt war, kann es diese hier sein? -> Saaga EAA.1295.2.2:213?61,159,1035,73,0
Ist "Körzi" wo der Vater lebte/arbeitete als diese Kattri geboren wurde? Wo liegt Körzi?

[avagula]

Körtsi=Kõrtsi=Krug
Vater Andre war Krüger in Hargla.

[avagula]

Erste Frage (hm, zweite) - Andre war Wirth in Tarto von Jahr 1795, es steht geschrieben:
- Andre, jetzt Wirth in Gesinde (alte Wirth ist gestorben in dasselbe Jahr - 1795, wie es steht in vorige Seite)
- dessen Weib Anne
- ... Tochter Kattri

[avagula]

Lets follow this tread, that was in meantime private.

We have found out earlier that:
1795 Andre was Wirth in Gesinde Tarto and had daughter Kattri
1811 Andre wasn't any more in Tarto - http://www.ra.ee/dgs/_purl.php?shc=EAA. ... 5,439,54,0
and he was in Krug Rusa (which belong earlier to Gut Menzen (Mõniste)) - http://www.ra.ee/dgs/_purl.php?shc=EAA. ... 1055,612,0 and here is written that Andri is father-in-law of Krüger Jahn, so we can estimate that Jahns wife is Kattri - and thats right, because:
1816 - Krug Rusa Saaga EAA.1865.2.2/6:31?1454,1757,619,59,0 - its written, that wife is Katri, Andre's daughter
on next page Saaga EAA.1865.2.2/6:32?255,815,839,41,0 it is written that Andre has died in 1812.
Unfortunately Karel who interests you was born in year 1796 and he is harder to find - lets go from 1826 back: Saaga EAA.1865.2.2/9:30?296,535,726,99,0 - Karel has left Rusa Krug and is now in Hof with his wife Hip - Saaga EAA.1865.2.2/9:5?317,982,1026,113,0
(beware, there is another Karel Taits, Mikk's son and his wife is also Hip, but they are living in Gesinde Taitzi and both Karels ages are messed up - revisonslists are not very reliable source)

[udomaecker]

...and here is written that Andri is father-in-law of Krüger Jahn, so we can estimate that Jahns wife is Kattri - and thats right, because:
1816 - Krug Rusa Saaga EAA.1865.2.2/6:31?1454,1757,619,59,0 - its written, that wife is Katri, Andre's daughter

What is Jahn's last name, or will his future last name be?

Unfortunately Karel who interests you was born in year 1796 and he is harder to find - lets go from 1826 back: Saaga EAA.1865.2.2/9:30?296,535,726,99,0

What exactly is written there?

Karel has left Rusa Krug and is now in Hof with his wife Hip - Saaga EAA.1865.2.2/9:5?317,982,1026,113,0

Do I see "Carl, Rein's Sohn" there?
And does my Karel have a brother Peter?

(beware, there is another Karel Taits, Mikk's son and his wife is also Hip, but they are living in Gesinde Taitzi and both Karels ages are messed up - revisonslists are not very reliable source)

I checked here http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=17 ... a44e2d49c2 (don't mind the current page) and found a few birht's with Taitz's as father. Like Peter Taitz, Jaan Taitz, Hendrik Taitz...at least Peter is Krüger.

Seite - Kind - Vater - Jahr
6 - Bernhard Carl - Peter Taitz - 1834
7 - Kusta - Karel Taitz m Marri- 1834
26
-> 31 - Mathide Juliana Charlotte - Karel Taitz m Hip - 1835
54 - Leno Jula? - (Krueger) Peter Taitz - 1837
58 - Henno - Jaan Taitz - 1837
-> 65 - Joseph - Karel Taitz m Hip - 1838
70 - Hendrik - Karel Taitz m Marri- 1839
97 - Ann - Jaan Taitz - 1840
107 - Jaan - Karel Taitz m Marri- 1840
135/36 - zwillinge - Hendrik Taitz - 1842
136 - Hendrik - Jaan - 1842
145 - Lüs - Karel m Marri - 1843
...

Also, the year that my Karel was born, 1796, there was another Karel Taitz born. Mik and Hils's son (if I'm not mistaken). In my findings there was a Karel Taitz married to Marri.
If indeed there's another Karel married to a Hip, that would be majorly messed up...

[avagula]

What is Jahn's last name, or will his future last name be?

Warrik, its on the same page with Karel in 1826 first link I gave

What exactly is written there?

Zu Hofs Leute

Do I see "Carl, Rein's Sohn" there?

Its apparently a mistake in revisionacts, it was there already in earlier revisions, where Karel was titled like Jahns bother

And does my Karel have a brother Peter?

Looks like.
Revisionacts are not very reliable source (specially about ages and even parents), when you find controversive data you should check churchbooks. Revisionacts are just easier to read and follow the movement of people

[avagula]

One more source:
Saaga EAA.1295.1.215:100?10,295,794,411,0

[Katsa]

This another Karel Taitz who was married to Marri - his first wife was a woman named Hip, Marri wa the second one. If I'm not mistaken this Hip died 1830, shortly after their twins were born.
Saaga EAA.1295.1.754:117?772,1520,317,101,0

So you should really watch out when recording your Karels descendants.

[udomaecker]

I want to thank everybody who helped me in this thread. You guys helped me alot. Now I understand the structure of these church books a little bit more. It was quite confusing in the beginning. I will now research descendents of the people I have. I might re-open this thread later when I have questions.

[udomaecker]

I'm back faster than expected.
Saaga EAA.1295.1.754:163?799,854,360,262,0
out of the five children, I only found a wedding for one (my direct ancestor Caroline).
Can someone please help me to decypher the comments about the children in the above link? In some old findings of mine I read that Caroline's son was born in Vyborg (Finand, then Russia), later I found his correct birth place in Lubana/Latvia. But those loose clues about the St. Petersburg area keep appearing from time to time. Is this also the case here?
So, what does the text in the box say?

[Katsa]

Katarina Emilie - abgegangen nach Porchow Parochials(chein) d. d. 25 Janr. 1848 Nr ...
Otto Eduard - confir. 1852. abgeg. nach Petersb(urg) 1858 7/IV
Mathilde Juliana Charlotte - conf 1854 abgeg. nach Tula 1858 7/IV
Josepp - conf 1856 Parochialsch(ein) nach Rewold? Reval? 1857 d. d. 15 Mai Nr. 51
Drei von den Kindern sind nach Rußland gegangen. Porchow ist eine Stadt in der Nähe von Pleskau/Pskow, Tula befindet sich südlich von Moskau. Ich bin nicht ganz sicher, wohin der Sohn Josep gegangen ist. Es kann sein Reval oder Rewold oder noch etwas.

[udomaecker]

Thank you, Katsa.
Do you know of a website with church books in Russia?

[Katsa]

There are some Lutheran Church books (incl. St. Petersburg and Pskow) available HERE (Click on "Browse our record collection" -> Asia and Middle East -> Russia). There was an Estonian church (St. Johannis) in St. Petersburg - perhaps you should try this first. Unfortunately there are only birth, marriage and death record books, so it is quite a task to find somebody there. And browsing those pages is really time consuming!

[udomaecker]

I tried to research in Karel's wife Hip Sissask. The marriage in 1825 says "Torwasse Kusta Sissask t. Hip".
In Torwasse I found the following records.
1811: Saaga EAA.1865.2.1/11:10?1275,1243,1041,364,0
1816: Saaga EAA.1865.2.2/6:24?164,1479,1939,423,0
1826: Saaga EAA.1865.2.2/9:24?64,1044,1274,121,0

Could Peter (ca. 1729-1801) be Kusta's (ca 1760-1820) father? And therefore Hips grandfather? I couldn't find Hip. Could Hip have a brother Jaan/Jahn (who has a daughter named Hip).