Hello!
I found mentions at my ancestors (Haljala, Kattentak) – ESWAK (SCHWAG) - in SAAGA. But I don`t understand the whole in old documents.
Help me to find answers for such questions. Excuse-me for my bad English.
1. Personaalraamat I. Andja, Vanamõisa, Annikvere ...; EAA.1224.1.236; 1860-1870 - Eswak
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... c6ac50a0b1
1.1. First line – on the right of «Esvak(Shvag)» is written ` Heinrichs` . What can it be?
1.2. Second line - on the right of «Ewa» is written `l 57`– What is it?
And why her date of birth and confirmation aren`t written, as at rests persons?
1.3. column after the column with the date of birth – is it confirmation?
1.4. what are columns on years `1860-1869`? What is written in they?
2. Haljala kihelkonna revisjonilehed; EAA.1864.2.IX-94; 1850 - Eswak
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 239cd05ef3
What is writtenn in column on the right of
- Hans Jaansohy Schwag
- Jacob Hansohn
Something about 1836?
Thank you very much!
Help understand church books
1.1. '36 t. Heinrichs hof - this indicates that those persons came from Heinrichshof in 1836. Heinrichshof is probably in Estonian Kolu in Kadrina parish (there are other Heinrichshofs in Estonia, but this looks the most likely)
1.2. this may mean that her husband died in in 1857. There is no data about Ewa probably because she was in previous Personaalraamat under another family, maybe even from other parish, and the writer was not able to find data about her (or did not spare time on that)
1.3. Yes, it is confirmation
1.4. Those are indications that person had holy communion
2. It is written that he (and his family) came from Gut Heinrichshof (see the remark 1.1.) in 1836.
1.2. this may mean that her husband died in in 1857. There is no data about Ewa probably because she was in previous Personaalraamat under another family, maybe even from other parish, and the writer was not able to find data about her (or did not spare time on that)
1.3. Yes, it is confirmation
1.4. Those are indications that person had holy communion
2. It is written that he (and his family) came from Gut Heinrichshof (see the remark 1.1.) in 1836.
Thank you very much for your answer. You helped me.
I want yet ask a little.
1. Surmameetrika; EAA.1224.1.233; 18.05.1847-1861 – Hans
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 7a6f5c6a61
The dates of death are writed out in words – I can not understand the date of death.
What is date of death of Hans Eswak (Schwag)N 154?
2. Surmameetrika; EAA.1224.1.233; 18.05.1847-1861
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 8e735422c7
What is date of death of Маddis Kawomat (N 267)?
3. Leerilaste nimistu; EAA.1224.1.68; 1834-1860 - Jaagub
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 470d34561b
N 27 – Jacob - Near Jaani Hans is writen Kermo - is it the second name of Hans?
Kihlatute, mahakuulutatute ja abiellunute nimekiri; EAA.1224.1.227; 1834-1852 - Jacob, Luso
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... ee69f2e16b
N 21 – Kermo also
Thank you very much!
I want yet ask a little.
1. Surmameetrika; EAA.1224.1.233; 18.05.1847-1861 – Hans
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 7a6f5c6a61
The dates of death are writed out in words – I can not understand the date of death.
What is date of death of Hans Eswak (Schwag)N 154?
2. Surmameetrika; EAA.1224.1.233; 18.05.1847-1861
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 8e735422c7
What is date of death of Маddis Kawomat (N 267)?
3. Leerilaste nimistu; EAA.1224.1.68; 1834-1860 - Jaagub
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 470d34561b
N 27 – Jacob - Near Jaani Hans is writen Kermo - is it the second name of Hans?
Kihlatute, mahakuulutatute ja abiellunute nimekiri; EAA.1224.1.227; 1834-1852 - Jacob, Luso
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... ee69f2e16b
N 21 – Kermo also
Thank you very much!
1. Aug fünfzehn / eodem = Aug achtzehn that is died in August 15 and buried in August 18
2. Nov acht and Nov sechszehn that is died in Nov 8 and was buried in November 16
3. Jakob - Kärmo od Joani Hans Schwag - Jakob's father name was Hans Schwag. In Estonia before people get family names they had pre-names to make destiction between different people. Those pre-names were not fixed and could change. And those pre-names were used later as well until people became accustomed with family names. Hence Joan and Kärmo are both Hans' pre-names and he probably was called both ways as Joani Hans (in more common way Jaani Hans) or Kärmo Hans. It might be that Hans' father's name was Jaan and that he lived in place (farm?) called Kärmo/Karmo.
4. This confirms the previous, Jacob's father's name was Kärmo Hans. Liisos father's name is Jaani Madis which means that first name was Madis, but pre-name Jaan (probably father's name).
2. Nov acht and Nov sechszehn that is died in Nov 8 and was buried in November 16
3. Jakob - Kärmo od Joani Hans Schwag - Jakob's father name was Hans Schwag. In Estonia before people get family names they had pre-names to make destiction between different people. Those pre-names were not fixed and could change. And those pre-names were used later as well until people became accustomed with family names. Hence Joan and Kärmo are both Hans' pre-names and he probably was called both ways as Joani Hans (in more common way Jaani Hans) or Kärmo Hans. It might be that Hans' father's name was Jaan and that he lived in place (farm?) called Kärmo/Karmo.
4. This confirms the previous, Jacob's father's name was Kärmo Hans. Liisos father's name is Jaani Madis which means that first name was Madis, but pre-name Jaan (probably father's name).
Dear mlauri!
I am very thankful you for a help. I continue to understand documents from SAAGA.
I try to understand independently, but I do not know the Estonian and German languages, and also specific of church books.
Therefore I very ask you to answer on next portion of my questions.
1. Surmameetrika; EAA.1224.1.233; 18.05.1847-1861
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 7a6f5c6a61
Question:
That exactly mean the names of parish in columns before and after the name of man. If I am right, n 154 Hans Eswak had
- place of death - Kattentak
- birth-place (or burial places) - Loop?
2. Kadrina kihelkonna hingeloendid; EAA.1864.2.VIII-129; 1834
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 739e473c91
Question.
When was a record conducted? What April?
What last name is written near n 24 Hans Jaansohn?
3. If Hans Eswak borned in 1799 (1800 – records in other documents give such variant) in Loop, I search records about his birth in Sunni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.4; 1790-1808
If I searched correctly, I had found a resembling variant such
3.1. 23.04.1799. Loopu – Hanso Jaan + Ello
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... d1b92a1802
Just in case (I was not able to read the name of all of parishs) I chosen other variants.
3.2. 13.09.1799. ……… Jaan + Mall
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 361bb881d7
3.3. 01.12. 1799. …….Marbi Jaan + Mai
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 17f7b19fcb
3.4. 13.04.1800 - …..Hanso Jaan + Mano
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... a3a4c17054
3.5. 22.12.1800 - Kawast - Padussi Jaan + Leno
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 42f0f0c12d
Question.
How correctly did I do a choice?
4. As I understand, in the same book of Sunni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.4; 1790-1808 is a record about wedding of parents of Hans Eswak.
Question.
What pages is it needed to look these records on?
And in general – how to search records in such books? (where are birth, where are death, where wedding and other)
I am very thankful you for a help. I continue to understand documents from SAAGA.
I try to understand independently, but I do not know the Estonian and German languages, and also specific of church books.
Therefore I very ask you to answer on next portion of my questions.
1. Surmameetrika; EAA.1224.1.233; 18.05.1847-1861
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 7a6f5c6a61
Question:
That exactly mean the names of parish in columns before and after the name of man. If I am right, n 154 Hans Eswak had
- place of death - Kattentak
- birth-place (or burial places) - Loop?
2. Kadrina kihelkonna hingeloendid; EAA.1864.2.VIII-129; 1834
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 739e473c91
Question.
When was a record conducted? What April?
What last name is written near n 24 Hans Jaansohn?
3. If Hans Eswak borned in 1799 (1800 – records in other documents give such variant) in Loop, I search records about his birth in Sunni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.4; 1790-1808
If I searched correctly, I had found a resembling variant such
3.1. 23.04.1799. Loopu – Hanso Jaan + Ello
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... d1b92a1802
Just in case (I was not able to read the name of all of parishs) I chosen other variants.
3.2. 13.09.1799. ……… Jaan + Mall
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 361bb881d7
3.3. 01.12. 1799. …….Marbi Jaan + Mai
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 17f7b19fcb
3.4. 13.04.1800 - …..Hanso Jaan + Mano
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... a3a4c17054
3.5. 22.12.1800 - Kawast - Padussi Jaan + Leno
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 42f0f0c12d
Question.
How correctly did I do a choice?
4. As I understand, in the same book of Sunni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.4; 1790-1808 is a record about wedding of parents of Hans Eswak.
Question.
What pages is it needed to look these records on?
And in general – how to search records in such books? (where are birth, where are death, where wedding and other)
1. 1) Before is the place where person lived when (s)he died, and usually it is the place of death, but not always.
2) And after is birth place.
2. 1) zweiten April or April 2nd. However, it does not necessarily mean that at 2 of April they lived there. Data were collected earlier and hence the lates changes (deaths, marriages, births) are not included. Still, it is worth to follow the date as sometimes those soul revision were made +/- 1 year.
2) he is Wirth or owner/tenant of the farm. Before Estonian were able to own there farms they legally were tenants of farms, farms were owned by landlords
3. Ages in soul revisions are quite big approximations. Sometimes, they are wrong by 5 or even more years. Of course in the case of old people errors might be even bigger and with children they are usually small (or data are even correct). It is also so that earlier revisions have bigger mistakes as there were no birth records available. Also mistakes with women tend to be bigger. The ages were calculated from the earliest revision person was listed. Eg. if in 1811 person was written 14 then in 1816 he was written to be 14+5=19. However, person could be actually 10 or 16 in 1811.
So it is always better to make at first sort of general tree based on soul revision, as then you will have more information incl. pre-names etc.
Here, Saaga EAA.1864.2.VIII-127:72, you can see that Hans is 16 in 1816.
Here, Saaga EAA.1864.2.VII-105:126, that in 1811 he was 12, and that he probably has older brother Joseph and mother Ello 50 years old.
Here, Saaga EAA.1864.2.VI-53:52 (this revision does not list women), you can see that in 1811 Hans is 12 (and other brother named Johan), but also that father's name was Jaan. Jaan is brother of Rehmo Jacob, who's sons are Hans, Jacob and Peter listed above.
Saaga EAA.1864.2.V-47:128 - here under No 12 is Rihmo Jacob who was in 1782 33-years old, but now dead. He has brother Jaan who has wife Ello. So most likely of those birth records the first is correct one.
If you want to be sure, then look for other birth records (brothers and sisters of Hans), if they fit the you can be sure that this is correct. Of course, do not forget that sometimes childeren died very young and hence not all children are listed in soul revisions.
This last soul revision indicates that Jaan and Ello married sometime between 1782-1796 and probably before 1789 as their oldes child is at the time of revison 7 years old.
This last revision also writes that Ello is from Metzikus, which now has Estonian name Metsiku and is in Haljala parish.
4. Taking account all that above, it seems that you will not find the marriage of Jaan and Ello in the church book from 1790-1808 but from earlier. Unfortunatelly, there is no church book from Haljala parish covering period 1771-90.
Still try to find births of Jaan and his brother Jacob, as their pre-name is Rihmo/Rahmo/Rähmo and probably their father's name was Hans. It might be that there are some records about their birth.
Unfortunatelly the soul revison of Metzikus from 1795 does not exist. So it is impossible to find out who were the parents of Ello. However it is for 1782. Saaga EAA.1864.2.IV-4:131 And it might be that Ello is just that from the first page the third from bottom. So her father was Jaan, mother Kai and Jaan was Kubjas - overseer of work.
There was no exact rules prior 1833 who to rite church records. Only that they have to include certain information. So it is that there is great differences how all those records are written. Older books are particularly confusing, as it might be that years are mixed and that births are in serveral parts of the book etc.
Some general principles. Always start from first pages, there might be good information. Here, Saaga EAA.1224.3.2:2, is written that 4. Estonian (unteutsch od Esthen) marriages (copuliert) start from page 37, 5. Estonian children christenings (getauffe), born in matrimony, start from page 116; 6. Burials (begrabene) of Estonians start from page 405; and 7. Christenings of children out of wedlock (unecheliche od hur-kinder, out of wedlock or whore children) are listed from page 458. 8. confirmations are listed from page 90.
Those indications are generally correct.
2) And after is birth place.
2. 1) zweiten April or April 2nd. However, it does not necessarily mean that at 2 of April they lived there. Data were collected earlier and hence the lates changes (deaths, marriages, births) are not included. Still, it is worth to follow the date as sometimes those soul revision were made +/- 1 year.
2) he is Wirth or owner/tenant of the farm. Before Estonian were able to own there farms they legally were tenants of farms, farms were owned by landlords
3. Ages in soul revisions are quite big approximations. Sometimes, they are wrong by 5 or even more years. Of course in the case of old people errors might be even bigger and with children they are usually small (or data are even correct). It is also so that earlier revisions have bigger mistakes as there were no birth records available. Also mistakes with women tend to be bigger. The ages were calculated from the earliest revision person was listed. Eg. if in 1811 person was written 14 then in 1816 he was written to be 14+5=19. However, person could be actually 10 or 16 in 1811.
So it is always better to make at first sort of general tree based on soul revision, as then you will have more information incl. pre-names etc.
Here, Saaga EAA.1864.2.VIII-127:72, you can see that Hans is 16 in 1816.
Here, Saaga EAA.1864.2.VII-105:126, that in 1811 he was 12, and that he probably has older brother Joseph and mother Ello 50 years old.
Here, Saaga EAA.1864.2.VI-53:52 (this revision does not list women), you can see that in 1811 Hans is 12 (and other brother named Johan), but also that father's name was Jaan. Jaan is brother of Rehmo Jacob, who's sons are Hans, Jacob and Peter listed above.
Saaga EAA.1864.2.V-47:128 - here under No 12 is Rihmo Jacob who was in 1782 33-years old, but now dead. He has brother Jaan who has wife Ello. So most likely of those birth records the first is correct one.
If you want to be sure, then look for other birth records (brothers and sisters of Hans), if they fit the you can be sure that this is correct. Of course, do not forget that sometimes childeren died very young and hence not all children are listed in soul revisions.
This last soul revision indicates that Jaan and Ello married sometime between 1782-1796 and probably before 1789 as their oldes child is at the time of revison 7 years old.
This last revision also writes that Ello is from Metzikus, which now has Estonian name Metsiku and is in Haljala parish.
4. Taking account all that above, it seems that you will not find the marriage of Jaan and Ello in the church book from 1790-1808 but from earlier. Unfortunatelly, there is no church book from Haljala parish covering period 1771-90.
Still try to find births of Jaan and his brother Jacob, as their pre-name is Rihmo/Rahmo/Rähmo and probably their father's name was Hans. It might be that there are some records about their birth.
Unfortunatelly the soul revison of Metzikus from 1795 does not exist. So it is impossible to find out who were the parents of Ello. However it is for 1782. Saaga EAA.1864.2.IV-4:131 And it might be that Ello is just that from the first page the third from bottom. So her father was Jaan, mother Kai and Jaan was Kubjas - overseer of work.
There was no exact rules prior 1833 who to rite church records. Only that they have to include certain information. So it is that there is great differences how all those records are written. Older books are particularly confusing, as it might be that years are mixed and that births are in serveral parts of the book etc.
Some general principles. Always start from first pages, there might be good information. Here, Saaga EAA.1224.3.2:2, is written that 4. Estonian (unteutsch od Esthen) marriages (copuliert) start from page 37, 5. Estonian children christenings (getauffe), born in matrimony, start from page 116; 6. Burials (begrabene) of Estonians start from page 405; and 7. Christenings of children out of wedlock (unecheliche od hur-kinder, out of wedlock or whore children) are listed from page 458. 8. confirmations are listed from page 90.
Those indications are generally correct.
Dear mlauri
Good afternoon!
I understood a bit with information and, as usual, there are new questions.
1. I found a record about birth of Jaan.
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.2; 1728-1771 – down p.188, on April, 15/18
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... fc032b66c8
Questions:
1. That is written after a date – Losna ? it is such locality, name of the country?
2. That is written in the second line in records about birth – whose names?
2. Possibly I found a record about death of Yaana.
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.7; 1808-1821 (p. 200, may – Hanso Jaan)
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 39bb59eb3d
But I am embarrassed by age of his death (40 in place of 41) and incomprehensible for me locality.
But did he live in Loobu?
Question. What probability, that is this record done about Jaan – father of Hans Eswak-Schvag?
3. I found a record about birth of Ello - is a middle of p.263
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 9eed1a5b63
Question.
1. What date of its birth?
2. What is there written birth-place?
3. I go back to records which you found for me.
Haljala kihelkond; EAA.1864.2.VI-53; 1811 – Jain, Hans
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 1d31a6a44b
Question. That is written on the right of N 12? Is there reference on N8?
4. I found a record about birth of Jakob – son of Hans
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.9; 1822-1833 – Jaagub – at the very end list
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... d47c962e8d
Question.
1. That is written after Loobus? Name of the country?
2. Why is a record finished writing to the list in the end, but not in the proper month?
Thank you very much!
I do not know as I can thank You for Your help.
Good afternoon!
I understood a bit with information and, as usual, there are new questions.
1. I found a record about birth of Jaan.
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.2; 1728-1771 – down p.188, on April, 15/18
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... fc032b66c8
Questions:
1. That is written after a date – Losna ? it is such locality, name of the country?
2. That is written in the second line in records about birth – whose names?
2. Possibly I found a record about death of Yaana.
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.7; 1808-1821 (p. 200, may – Hanso Jaan)
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 39bb59eb3d
But I am embarrassed by age of his death (40 in place of 41) and incomprehensible for me locality.
But did he live in Loobu?
Question. What probability, that is this record done about Jaan – father of Hans Eswak-Schvag?
3. I found a record about birth of Ello - is a middle of p.263
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 9eed1a5b63
Question.
1. What date of its birth?
2. What is there written birth-place?
3. I go back to records which you found for me.
Haljala kihelkond; EAA.1864.2.VI-53; 1811 – Jain, Hans
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 1d31a6a44b
Question. That is written on the right of N 12? Is there reference on N8?
4. I found a record about birth of Jakob – son of Hans
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.9; 1822-1833 – Jaagub – at the very end list
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... d47c962e8d
Question.
1. That is written after Loobus? Name of the country?
2. Why is a record finished writing to the list in the end, but not in the proper month?
Thank you very much!
I do not know as I can thank You for Your help.
I made a mistake (point 2 of previous message)
Here is credible record to death of Hanso Jaan which borned in 1753 – p.198, april, and died in 1808.
But however question
– what is Seli?
- What probability, that is this record done about Jaan – father of Hans Eswak-Schvag?
Thank You.
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... ad37e85521
Here is credible record to death of Hanso Jaan which borned in 1753 – p.198, april, and died in 1808.
But however question
– what is Seli?
- What probability, that is this record done about Jaan – father of Hans Eswak-Schvag?
Thank You.
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... ad37e85521
1. 1) Lasna in German is in Estonian Läsna - a village in Kadrina parish. I picked it up from Kupits, which is map server of Estonian Historical Arhives. The link is here (sorry, very long).
http://www.eha.ee/kupits/?txtZoomFactor ... PrintPage=
2) in the second line there are god parents. gew (sometimes tfz): usually 3 persons, sometimes 2
2. Seli is a village, probably in Haljala parish Selgs in german or Selja in Estonian (names changes sometimes). So, probably this is not Jaan you are looking for (if he should be living in manorlands of Loop/Loobu).
Ages in death records might not be correct, as some clergeryman did not bother to look from the birth records excact birth date, or was the book destroyed. Then the age was asked from relatives but in old times people did not much thought about how old the person is. So if they considered (s)he being old, then it was something 60 or 70, if very old then 90 or 100. If the age is written ending with 5 or 0, and age is relatively big, then there is possibility that this is not actual age.
As in this churchbook locations are written down, look for a Jaan in locations of Loop or Lasna (it could be written also as Laesna) or other (look at this map; the manorlands of Loop have borders)
3. 1) "confirmirt" is probably mistaken word and should be "eodem" which means "the same [as previous]". So it is d. 26 qbr. or "d" for date and qbr is for November. This means that Nov 26th is day when she was christianised. There is no information about birth date (older days only days which were related with church work were written down, i.e. christening and burial)
// rbr - September, sbr - October, xbr - December//
2) the birthplace is Koddofer. And then there are godparents as well, this time marked with vadr. which is abbreviation of Estonian "vaderid" (i.e. godparents)
Second 3. It is written that Rehmo Jacobs son Hans, who now is running the farm (peremees or Wirth in German) was in N8 at the previous revision. I did not pick up every word, as the writing is not very good and I am not very good in German, but probably he come here in 1802 (zweitemahl).
Only persons who were married and enough old were allowed to run farms up to 1820ies. This was main reason why after wife's death, man married in few months again.
4. It is written Loobust - seems that the writer was Estonian or know Estonian well. It means in Estonian "from Loobu". In Estonian you have word ending either -st or -lt (there is no clear rule when -st or -lt) indicating that it is from somewhere.
It seems that those last records were added later. See, they start from March (März) - several dead-born children (todtgeboren) or died before christening, and then christening and births from the border-regions of the parish. Probably somebody else christianized them (e.g. school teacher) as it was considered that children were to weak and might die soon. Due to unknown reason, it seems that those records were added only latter (maybe they were at first fogotten, e.g. teacher wrote them on separate paper and church pastor forgot to write them to the right place, or lost the paper)
http://www.eha.ee/kupits/?txtZoomFactor ... PrintPage=
2) in the second line there are god parents. gew (sometimes tfz): usually 3 persons, sometimes 2
2. Seli is a village, probably in Haljala parish Selgs in german or Selja in Estonian (names changes sometimes). So, probably this is not Jaan you are looking for (if he should be living in manorlands of Loop/Loobu).
Ages in death records might not be correct, as some clergeryman did not bother to look from the birth records excact birth date, or was the book destroyed. Then the age was asked from relatives but in old times people did not much thought about how old the person is. So if they considered (s)he being old, then it was something 60 or 70, if very old then 90 or 100. If the age is written ending with 5 or 0, and age is relatively big, then there is possibility that this is not actual age.
As in this churchbook locations are written down, look for a Jaan in locations of Loop or Lasna (it could be written also as Laesna) or other (look at this map; the manorlands of Loop have borders)
3. 1) "confirmirt" is probably mistaken word and should be "eodem" which means "the same [as previous]". So it is d. 26 qbr. or "d" for date and qbr is for November. This means that Nov 26th is day when she was christianised. There is no information about birth date (older days only days which were related with church work were written down, i.e. christening and burial)
// rbr - September, sbr - October, xbr - December//
2) the birthplace is Koddofer. And then there are godparents as well, this time marked with vadr. which is abbreviation of Estonian "vaderid" (i.e. godparents)
Second 3. It is written that Rehmo Jacobs son Hans, who now is running the farm (peremees or Wirth in German) was in N8 at the previous revision. I did not pick up every word, as the writing is not very good and I am not very good in German, but probably he come here in 1802 (zweitemahl).
Only persons who were married and enough old were allowed to run farms up to 1820ies. This was main reason why after wife's death, man married in few months again.
4. It is written Loobust - seems that the writer was Estonian or know Estonian well. It means in Estonian "from Loobu". In Estonian you have word ending either -st or -lt (there is no clear rule when -st or -lt) indicating that it is from somewhere.
It seems that those last records were added later. See, they start from March (März) - several dead-born children (todtgeboren) or died before christening, and then christening and births from the border-regions of the parish. Probably somebody else christianized them (e.g. school teacher) as it was considered that children were to weak and might die soon. Due to unknown reason, it seems that those records were added only latter (maybe they were at first fogotten, e.g. teacher wrote them on separate paper and church pastor forgot to write them to the right place, or lost the paper)
Thank you very much for Your answers.
But again there are questions.
1. Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.9; 1822-1833 – Jaagub – at the very end list
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... d47c962e8d
Question.
That is written on the right of Loobus? Name of the country - Maetaguse?
2. http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 819d6b8e78
Questions.
- That is written between Kai and Ello?
- Did I get it right that Jaan and Kai had died between 1782 and 1792 (by the years of revisions)?
3. As I understand, Eswak – it Estonian, and Schwag is the German writing of the same word. Does can you know, what it means?
4. That can mean Rihmo and why did this nickname disappear, but not saved after descendants and did not become the last name?
5. Where is it possible to find information about ancestors to 1728 year? In Wahenbuch of information of Haljala it is not.
But again there are questions.
1. Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.9; 1822-1833 – Jaagub – at the very end list
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... d47c962e8d
Question.
That is written on the right of Loobus? Name of the country - Maetaguse?
2. http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 819d6b8e78
Questions.
- That is written between Kai and Ello?
- Did I get it right that Jaan and Kai had died between 1782 and 1792 (by the years of revisions)?
3. As I understand, Eswak – it Estonian, and Schwag is the German writing of the same word. Does can you know, what it means?
4. That can mean Rihmo and why did this nickname disappear, but not saved after descendants and did not become the last name?
5. Where is it possible to find information about ancestors to 1728 year? In Wahenbuch of information of Haljala it is not.
1. There is written "W. Mäetaguse Jaoni Hans. Ewa."
W - is for Wirth or farm owner
Mäetaguse is probably the name of the farm, so it is quite likely that Hans was farmer in Mäetaguse farm and his farther name was Jaan and wife was Ewa (in Estonian usually written as Eeva). Mäetaguse means "behind the hill" - of course it is taken if look from some village.
2. It is written
Kubiass Jaan 59 (in 1782) todt (died)
seine weib Kaij 53 (in 1782) (his wife Kai)
wohen beij Tenno Hanss in dorf Kadofer (is living in village Kadofer in the farm of Tenno Hans, in correct Estonian Tõnu Hans; if there is stroke above the letter then it means double letter) - you can find her data in 1795 in Kadofer together with Tenno Hans.
töchter Ello 12 verheirath Nach Loop (daughter Ello was 12 in 1782, but now married and lives in Loop)
in the next page there are other daughters of Jaan and Kai:
Maij - is now in Kichlefer and married with Maddij Lorentz
Tio - is now married with Tenno Hanso Tenno (Tõnu Hansu Tõnu). So it seems that Kai is now living with her daughter and son-in-law.
3. No you cannot make this conclusion. The family names were given in Northern Estonia in 1834/5 (ca 1826 in Southern Estonia - Livland). Sometimes people changed the name due some reasons (maybe they did not like it, or it was unproper word or something); names also changed because they were spelled wrongly or just in different way. There was three local languages (German, Estonian and Russian) and they are far from being simlar - many sounds exist only in Estonian etc, or German/Russian language do not allow to have some sound combinations etc. And there are many dialects in Estonia as well, even German was not the proper, but Old German or Low-German.
I think they changed the name due to unknow reason. I do not know what those names mean.
4. Rihmo was probably name of the farm, from where people orignated or lived. In current Estonian "rihm" means strap, trong, belt. In old days in this local dialect it might be a base for the word meaning "to beat [with belt]".
When the family names were given, there was no strong rules for this except that in one parish people who were not related were not allowed to take the similar name. However it happened sometimes. People choosed the names they though to have some importance to them (e.g. names of trees, lakes, animals, birds etc), or good qualities (e.g. hard-working, merry etc) and so one. Some people wanted to look like Germans (Germans were in upper class, so then you looked a bit better, as was thought) - so they choose German words or German-like words for the name (translating Estonian words sometimes but not always). It was quite widespread to use farm names or forefathers names, but then there was this rule of same names not allowed in one parish. In some cases those persons who write down the names gave them - this could end well or bad (e.g. names like Paris or Rome, but also Stupid or Lazy etc).
5. You can try those documents. However, you probably have to dig a lot.
EAA.3.1.451 - from 1716
EAA.3.1.460 - from 1726
EAA.3.1.469 - from 1732
EAA.3.1.475 - from 1739
EAA.3.1.481 - from 1744
EAA.3.1.489 - from 1750
EAA.3.1.498 - from 1765
EAA.3.1.505 - from 1774
Start with the newest and then go back in time.
If it works then look also in "Eestimaa rootsiaegne kindralkuberner"
e.g EAA.1.2.943 - this is about Big Famine in 1698-1790,
maybe something is here EAA.1.2.939
or even here EAA.1.2.930 - then you have to be really lucky!
However, if you even will not find your accestors, it is probably interesting to see about the farm, they lived.
Keep in mind that administrative changes took place, however you have to look definitely in Virumaa i.e. Wierland (not Wiek!!)
The Loop manor was separated from Rakvere (Wesenberg) around 1730ies, so you might need to look this manor as well. Kattentack is much older - there are records from 1583.
W - is for Wirth or farm owner
Mäetaguse is probably the name of the farm, so it is quite likely that Hans was farmer in Mäetaguse farm and his farther name was Jaan and wife was Ewa (in Estonian usually written as Eeva). Mäetaguse means "behind the hill" - of course it is taken if look from some village.
2. It is written
Kubiass Jaan 59 (in 1782) todt (died)
seine weib Kaij 53 (in 1782) (his wife Kai)
wohen beij Tenno Hanss in dorf Kadofer (is living in village Kadofer in the farm of Tenno Hans, in correct Estonian Tõnu Hans; if there is stroke above the letter then it means double letter) - you can find her data in 1795 in Kadofer together with Tenno Hans.
töchter Ello 12 verheirath Nach Loop (daughter Ello was 12 in 1782, but now married and lives in Loop)
in the next page there are other daughters of Jaan and Kai:
Maij - is now in Kichlefer and married with Maddij Lorentz
Tio - is now married with Tenno Hanso Tenno (Tõnu Hansu Tõnu). So it seems that Kai is now living with her daughter and son-in-law.
3. No you cannot make this conclusion. The family names were given in Northern Estonia in 1834/5 (ca 1826 in Southern Estonia - Livland). Sometimes people changed the name due some reasons (maybe they did not like it, or it was unproper word or something); names also changed because they were spelled wrongly or just in different way. There was three local languages (German, Estonian and Russian) and they are far from being simlar - many sounds exist only in Estonian etc, or German/Russian language do not allow to have some sound combinations etc. And there are many dialects in Estonia as well, even German was not the proper, but Old German or Low-German.
I think they changed the name due to unknow reason. I do not know what those names mean.
4. Rihmo was probably name of the farm, from where people orignated or lived. In current Estonian "rihm" means strap, trong, belt. In old days in this local dialect it might be a base for the word meaning "to beat [with belt]".
When the family names were given, there was no strong rules for this except that in one parish people who were not related were not allowed to take the similar name. However it happened sometimes. People choosed the names they though to have some importance to them (e.g. names of trees, lakes, animals, birds etc), or good qualities (e.g. hard-working, merry etc) and so one. Some people wanted to look like Germans (Germans were in upper class, so then you looked a bit better, as was thought) - so they choose German words or German-like words for the name (translating Estonian words sometimes but not always). It was quite widespread to use farm names or forefathers names, but then there was this rule of same names not allowed in one parish. In some cases those persons who write down the names gave them - this could end well or bad (e.g. names like Paris or Rome, but also Stupid or Lazy etc).
5. You can try those documents. However, you probably have to dig a lot.
EAA.3.1.451 - from 1716
EAA.3.1.460 - from 1726
EAA.3.1.469 - from 1732
EAA.3.1.475 - from 1739
EAA.3.1.481 - from 1744
EAA.3.1.489 - from 1750
EAA.3.1.498 - from 1765
EAA.3.1.505 - from 1774
Start with the newest and then go back in time.
If it works then look also in "Eestimaa rootsiaegne kindralkuberner"
e.g EAA.1.2.943 - this is about Big Famine in 1698-1790,
maybe something is here EAA.1.2.939
or even here EAA.1.2.930 - then you have to be really lucky!
However, if you even will not find your accestors, it is probably interesting to see about the farm, they lived.
Keep in mind that administrative changes took place, however you have to look definitely in Virumaa i.e. Wierland (not Wiek!!)
The Loop manor was separated from Rakvere (Wesenberg) around 1730ies, so you might need to look this manor as well. Kattentack is much older - there are records from 1583.
Dear mlauri
I began to study another branch – Kawomat, and as usual, questions appeared. I very ask to answer.
1. Haljala kihelkond; EAA.1864.2.VI-53; 1811 – запись 7, Maddis (26 yers)
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 95b1e2f978
Questions:
1.1. How correctly did I understand that father Maddis was not on the list of to this family?
1.2. That is written in the column of previous revision – from where Maddis arrived?
2. Surmameetrika; EAA.1224.1.233; 18.05.1847-1861 - Liiso
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=40 ... b530e0e0ae
Question:
What is date of death of Liiso Kawomat (N 118)?
3. It is writtenin in the revision of 1850, that Hans Esvak lived together with the family in Woiper, in 1858 all remained to live there.
At the same time in a record about his death 1857 it is written, that he died in Kermo. In addition, as you wrote, Kermo had been him pre-name.
Question.
Whether can be such, that Hans Esvak actually lived in Kermo, but was registered in Woiper?
Thank You very much.
I began to study another branch – Kawomat, and as usual, questions appeared. I very ask to answer.
1. Haljala kihelkond; EAA.1864.2.VI-53; 1811 – запись 7, Maddis (26 yers)
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 95b1e2f978
Questions:
1.1. How correctly did I understand that father Maddis was not on the list of to this family?
1.2. That is written in the column of previous revision – from where Maddis arrived?
2. Surmameetrika; EAA.1224.1.233; 18.05.1847-1861 - Liiso
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=40 ... b530e0e0ae
Question:
What is date of death of Liiso Kawomat (N 118)?
3. It is writtenin in the revision of 1850, that Hans Esvak lived together with the family in Woiper, in 1858 all remained to live there.
At the same time in a record about his death 1857 it is written, that he died in Kermo. In addition, as you wrote, Kermo had been him pre-name.
Question.
Whether can be such, that Hans Esvak actually lived in Kermo, but was registered in Woiper?
Thank You very much.
1. Maddis is not from the family of Michel (Tolpi or Reinu Jani Michel), which includes son Thomas and son Jain (or Jaen; means Jaan).
Maddis is new owner (actually he rented it as then Estonians did not own farms) of the farm - "jetzig. Wirth". At the time of previous revision he was in village of Toickfer (Toickfersche dorf) under No 11. This village is under the same manor, otherwise they would not know the number.
2. Died: June drei und zwanzig Abd. - i.e. evening of 23rd of June
Buried: June acht und zwanzig Mittag - i.e. noon of 28th of June
3. It might be so. Revisions were not very correct, I have feeling that church records are usually more reliable. As the villages were in the same manor, it was quite easy to move from one village to another, especially if the person was not farmer, but workhand or handyman. Older people moved to live with their childeren often.
I made a short digging of maps of that region (I don't know myself that region) and found that manor Kattentack (in Estonian Aaspere) had several villages and among them Woiperre (in Estonian Võipere), Kärmo (in Estonian Kärmu), and Toikfer (in Estonian Tõikvere). Võipere is few kilometers from Aaspere to southwest, Kärmu is 2-3 kilometers to northwest close to the Tallinn-Narva road, Tõikvere is also on the Tallinn-Narva road but some kilometers east from Kärmu. So all those villages are only few kilometers from each other.
Maddis is new owner (actually he rented it as then Estonians did not own farms) of the farm - "jetzig. Wirth". At the time of previous revision he was in village of Toickfer (Toickfersche dorf) under No 11. This village is under the same manor, otherwise they would not know the number.
2. Died: June drei und zwanzig Abd. - i.e. evening of 23rd of June
Buried: June acht und zwanzig Mittag - i.e. noon of 28th of June
3. It might be so. Revisions were not very correct, I have feeling that church records are usually more reliable. As the villages were in the same manor, it was quite easy to move from one village to another, especially if the person was not farmer, but workhand or handyman. Older people moved to live with their childeren often.
I made a short digging of maps of that region (I don't know myself that region) and found that manor Kattentack (in Estonian Aaspere) had several villages and among them Woiperre (in Estonian Võipere), Kärmo (in Estonian Kärmu), and Toikfer (in Estonian Tõikvere). Võipere is few kilometers from Aaspere to southwest, Kärmu is 2-3 kilometers to northwest close to the Tallinn-Narva road, Tõikvere is also on the Tallinn-Narva road but some kilometers east from Kärmu. So all those villages are only few kilometers from each other.
Dear mlauri
Thank You very much for Your help.
I found records, but that is written on the right of N 11 – that arrived from Liguste?
Haljala kihelkond; EAA.1864.2.V-41; 1795
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 1f2099c75c
Thank You very much for Your help.
I found records, but that is written on the right of N 11 – that arrived from Liguste?
Haljala kihelkond; EAA.1864.2.V-41; 1795
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 1f2099c75c
I understand that before they lived in village Liguste, which is in the same Kattentack /Aaspere manor. However, before that they lived in lands of Woljal /Woljel (Estonian Võle) manor in the same parish (Haljala). It is not clear when they come (before or after 1782), most likely after. You have to check from revision.
I found records yet.
1. http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 396977cb65
Question:
If did I get it right, Liguste, before belonged to Woljal| /Woljel? Or peasants did all move from there?
1. It is family of one of my lines. Liso is daughter Michkel and Mall.
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... f9c39f7c9c
Questions:
1. What tolpi?
2. Reino – is pre-name?
3. Is it written, that Mall died?
4. Michkel has only three children - Ann, Marry, Liso? or May also?
5. Is there interesting information written yet about this family?
6. The revisions of 1795 allude to that my families – and parents of Maddisa, and the parents of Lizo need to be looked in the revision of 1782 in Woljal /Woljel. But I I do not can them there to find.
Possibly, did I misapprehend and it is needed to search elsewhere?
Write, if I will begin to abuser Your help to me.
But without Your help I would remained in place in the searches.
1. http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 396977cb65
Question:
If did I get it right, Liguste, before belonged to Woljal| /Woljel? Or peasants did all move from there?
1. It is family of one of my lines. Liso is daughter Michkel and Mall.
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... f9c39f7c9c
Questions:
1. What tolpi?
2. Reino – is pre-name?
3. Is it written, that Mall died?
4. Michkel has only three children - Ann, Marry, Liso? or May also?
5. Is there interesting information written yet about this family?
6. The revisions of 1795 allude to that my families – and parents of Maddisa, and the parents of Lizo need to be looked in the revision of 1782 in Woljal /Woljel. But I I do not can them there to find.
Possibly, did I misapprehend and it is needed to search elsewhere?
Write, if I will begin to abuser Your help to me.
But without Your help I would remained in place in the searches.
1. I read that the village of Liguste was sold to the owners of Kattentack (see here Saaga EAA.1864.2.V-41:10 it is better written).
2.
1,2) Tölpi Reino Mihkel - Tölpi Rein is the pre-name, probably Mihkel's father's name. However if you look on the link under 6th question, then there is his brother Tolpi Jaani Adam. Tolpi/Tölpi is most likely farm's name, but what is then fathers name - Rein or Jaan - remains unclear.
The word "Tölpi" is very similar to Estonian "tölplane" which means slightly stupid (not with IQ problems just a slow thinking or person who acts sometimes stupidly). But in some dialects "tölp" is "a short coat" or "without horns". So you can wonder where those names came from
3) Yes, Mall died (gestorb)
4) There are 6 children: May (she was listed in previous revison, others are new-born), Ann, Marrij, Liso and Els; then son Thomas (also new-born).
5. It is written that during previous revision they were written under Woljal (this is that the Woljal was sold between 1782-1795).
The second wife Marri is from Saggad.
6. Actually Mihkel is here:
Saaga EAA.1864.2.V-41:11 under 7, brother of Tolpi Jaani Adam. And all his children except Thomas are listed (Thomas was probably too young to be known).
And Maddis is here:
Saaga EAA.1864.2.VI-53:41 under 11 father Jaan (died in 1798) and son Maddis.
It is not problem to me to answer to your questions - it is good to help other as sometimes I need a help myself. And actually it gives a possibility sometimes to go away from my own search problems - to refresh thinking.
2.
1,2) Tölpi Reino Mihkel - Tölpi Rein is the pre-name, probably Mihkel's father's name. However if you look on the link under 6th question, then there is his brother Tolpi Jaani Adam. Tolpi/Tölpi is most likely farm's name, but what is then fathers name - Rein or Jaan - remains unclear.
The word "Tölpi" is very similar to Estonian "tölplane" which means slightly stupid (not with IQ problems just a slow thinking or person who acts sometimes stupidly). But in some dialects "tölp" is "a short coat" or "without horns". So you can wonder where those names came from
3) Yes, Mall died (gestorb)
4) There are 6 children: May (she was listed in previous revison, others are new-born), Ann, Marrij, Liso and Els; then son Thomas (also new-born).
5. It is written that during previous revision they were written under Woljal (this is that the Woljal was sold between 1782-1795).
The second wife Marri is from Saggad.
6. Actually Mihkel is here:
Saaga EAA.1864.2.V-41:11 under 7, brother of Tolpi Jaani Adam. And all his children except Thomas are listed (Thomas was probably too young to be known).
And Maddis is here:
Saaga EAA.1864.2.VI-53:41 under 11 father Jaan (died in 1798) and son Maddis.
It is not problem to me to answer to your questions - it is good to help other as sometimes I need a help myself. And actually it gives a possibility sometimes to go away from my own search problems - to refresh thinking.
Thank You very much!
I also like to help people in what understand (I am a xxx in 2th spheres – condominiums and history of Organization of the Ukrainian nationalists (OUN) during the Second world war).
Possible, you also may need some consultation on these questions.
And now there are yet a little bit of my questions.
1. Ello borned in family Mardi Jaan и Kai
Haljall (Haljala), Metzikus (Metsiku), Koddofer
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.2; 1728-1771 Ello
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 9eed1a5b63
2. Probably, it is wedding of its parents.
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 0eef8343d3
Questions:
1. Marti and Mardi are sames? This is patronymic of Mart-Mard?
2. That does mean Mikko?
I also like to help people in what understand (I am a xxx in 2th spheres – condominiums and history of Organization of the Ukrainian nationalists (OUN) during the Second world war).
Possible, you also may need some consultation on these questions.
And now there are yet a little bit of my questions.
1. Ello borned in family Mardi Jaan и Kai
Haljall (Haljala), Metzikus (Metsiku), Koddofer
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.2; 1728-1771 Ello
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 9eed1a5b63
2. Probably, it is wedding of its parents.
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 0eef8343d3
Questions:
1. Marti and Mardi are sames? This is patronymic of Mart-Mard?
2. That does mean Mikko?
Hello!
I ask You to answer a few questions yet.
1. From where Jaan and Leno?
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.2; 1728-1771
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 9dd70877f0
2. Why can not find birth of Yaan in 1744-45 in the same book ?
If there is not a record about birth of Yaan in Sьnni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.2; 1728-1771, can be it in Sьnnimeetrika; EAA.1224.3.1; 1728-1752?
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 11a1ad2aff
3. http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=5& ... 60c0ecd7aa
As I understood, it – revisions also, but not all of people in them are borne. Or there only those, who moved elsewhere?
4. That can be searched in Meetrikaraamat?
Duplication of records about birth Sünnimeetrika?
Thank You very much.
I ask You to answer a few questions yet.
1. From where Jaan and Leno?
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.2; 1728-1771
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 9dd70877f0
2. Why can not find birth of Yaan in 1744-45 in the same book ?
If there is not a record about birth of Yaan in Sьnni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.2; 1728-1771, can be it in Sьnnimeetrika; EAA.1224.3.1; 1728-1752?
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 11a1ad2aff
3. http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=5& ... 60c0ecd7aa
As I understood, it – revisions also, but not all of people in them are borne. Or there only those, who moved elsewhere?
4. That can be searched in Meetrikaraamat?
Duplication of records about birth Sünnimeetrika?
Thank You very much.
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.4; 1790-1808
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... a11c00f831
1. Next to last line about death of Kai – is it written, that it is wife Mardi Jaan?
2. That in general mean reductions `p`, `t`, `lk` etc.?
Thank You!
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... a11c00f831
1. Next to last line about death of Kai – is it written, that it is wife Mardi Jaan?
2. That in general mean reductions `p`, `t`, `lk` etc.?
Thank You!
Here are answers.
questions from 6th Dec:
Yes you are correct, those are birth of Ello and marrage of her parents.
1. Name is Mart, but in Estonian grammar there are 14 cases (2 in English) instead of prepositions. Mardi means Mart's or like he > his. Marti is like he > him. However, in old writing often Marti=Mardi as Germans, who usually wrote the church books, did not know Estonian very well. And Estonian writing language was finally formed only in the 2nd part of 19th century. So 18th century writing is very similar to German way of writing (e.g. double note like Jürri and Marri, etc).
2. Here Mikko is Mikk's i.e. Mikk is first name (sometimes Miko/Miku), and Mikko Mart means that Mart's father's name was probably Mikk/Miku or the farm's name was Miku (farm names are always in the form of "his").
Questions from 13th of Dec:
1. There are 2 pairs of Jaan and Leno both from November 1768.
the first pair: Jöe Jaani Jaan and Eriki Mihkli t. Leen. Leeni is from Selja, but I did not read out from where Jaan is.
The second pair: Tönno Marti Jaan Arist (German Ari, Estonian Aari) and Kusto t. Leno Kärmo (Kusto daugther Leeno from Kärmo)
2. Why can not find birth of Yaan in 1744-45 in the same book ?
It might be that this book is destroyed by the fire or water. But look also in more extended period, i.e. 1740-50. Ages in soul revision are not very correct, particularly older ages were far being correct.
3. This is land revision. It lists farm lands by manor.
Here is Kattentack: Saaga EAA.3.1.505:310 (in perevious page, there is introduction). The first columns are indicating how much land farm has - hacken or adramaa is specific for Old Livland, and there is no correct size of it. But generally 1/2 hacken is quite a big farm.
Then there is farm's/farmer's name. At first persons are counted: Working-able people in age 15-60 (farmer; sons and working hands; farmer's wife; daugthers, working hands' wives and female working hands); then old people and those not able to work (male and female) and then young people (boys and girls).
Then there are listed animals, which are in farm (horses, pigs etc).
Then how many days in week the farm has to work for manor with and without horse (usually it was required in period from 23rd of April till 19th of Sept ie. from St.George day till St. Mathews day).
Then goods what the farm has to give to manor (starts with money, which nobody pays here; then there are different type of farm products like cereals, eggs, etc).
Liwa Mart is manor kubjas (oversee) and is free from (other) work and other obligations.
In this page Saaga EAA.3.1.505:314 there is lot of information about other people (it is not very common, but sometimes happened): Winta Jürri is Lostreiber (vabadik in Estonian) - person without land or with very small plot of land, usually worked has working hands or handworkers. There are also several persons working for manor (Wacht kerl, Schilter, Müller, Kutser), the latter has got a freedom and lives now in Faena.
Very intereting is that in the bottom of left page there are listed persons who have escaped. Some to Finland, some many years.
In left page, there is coastal village of Kesmo (Käsmu), where people did not have land to work on. So they usually gave fish and so only number of people is shown. But here also some people have escaped to Finland.
4. That can be searched in Meetrikaraamat?
Duplication of records about birth Sünnimeetrika?
In some cases there are information if people have come from other places (see also very beginning Saaga EAA.3.1.505:4 this is protocol of the revision) sometime those protocolls include information about movements. Here the handwriting is bad, but if you do not find familiar name, then it should not need to be translated. In some land revisions those protocols are just after or before manor materials. Sometimes those tabels include information if person has come from some other place. But generally the movement of people is difficult to find.
The last questions:
1. Next to last line about death of Kai – is it written, that it is wife Mardi Jaan?
It is written that she is widow of Mardi Jaan and 72 years old.
2. That in general mean reductions `p`, `t`, `lk` etc.?
Those are abbreviations from Estonian (seems that writer know Estonian, but it also seems that he used the old form of Estonian writing language - writting like German do).
p - poeg - son
t - tütar - daughter
Lk - lesk - widdow
N - naine - wife
in the same page also "sündides surnud" - stillborn
"pär.rist.surnud" - died after christning
"1 pääw wanna" - 1 day old
questions from 6th Dec:
Yes you are correct, those are birth of Ello and marrage of her parents.
1. Name is Mart, but in Estonian grammar there are 14 cases (2 in English) instead of prepositions. Mardi means Mart's or like he > his. Marti is like he > him. However, in old writing often Marti=Mardi as Germans, who usually wrote the church books, did not know Estonian very well. And Estonian writing language was finally formed only in the 2nd part of 19th century. So 18th century writing is very similar to German way of writing (e.g. double note like Jürri and Marri, etc).
2. Here Mikko is Mikk's i.e. Mikk is first name (sometimes Miko/Miku), and Mikko Mart means that Mart's father's name was probably Mikk/Miku or the farm's name was Miku (farm names are always in the form of "his").
Questions from 13th of Dec:
1. There are 2 pairs of Jaan and Leno both from November 1768.
the first pair: Jöe Jaani Jaan and Eriki Mihkli t. Leen. Leeni is from Selja, but I did not read out from where Jaan is.
The second pair: Tönno Marti Jaan Arist (German Ari, Estonian Aari) and Kusto t. Leno Kärmo (Kusto daugther Leeno from Kärmo)
2. Why can not find birth of Yaan in 1744-45 in the same book ?
It might be that this book is destroyed by the fire or water. But look also in more extended period, i.e. 1740-50. Ages in soul revision are not very correct, particularly older ages were far being correct.
3. This is land revision. It lists farm lands by manor.
Here is Kattentack: Saaga EAA.3.1.505:310 (in perevious page, there is introduction). The first columns are indicating how much land farm has - hacken or adramaa is specific for Old Livland, and there is no correct size of it. But generally 1/2 hacken is quite a big farm.
Then there is farm's/farmer's name. At first persons are counted: Working-able people in age 15-60 (farmer; sons and working hands; farmer's wife; daugthers, working hands' wives and female working hands); then old people and those not able to work (male and female) and then young people (boys and girls).
Then there are listed animals, which are in farm (horses, pigs etc).
Then how many days in week the farm has to work for manor with and without horse (usually it was required in period from 23rd of April till 19th of Sept ie. from St.George day till St. Mathews day).
Then goods what the farm has to give to manor (starts with money, which nobody pays here; then there are different type of farm products like cereals, eggs, etc).
Liwa Mart is manor kubjas (oversee) and is free from (other) work and other obligations.
In this page Saaga EAA.3.1.505:314 there is lot of information about other people (it is not very common, but sometimes happened): Winta Jürri is Lostreiber (vabadik in Estonian) - person without land or with very small plot of land, usually worked has working hands or handworkers. There are also several persons working for manor (Wacht kerl, Schilter, Müller, Kutser), the latter has got a freedom and lives now in Faena.
Very intereting is that in the bottom of left page there are listed persons who have escaped. Some to Finland, some many years.
In left page, there is coastal village of Kesmo (Käsmu), where people did not have land to work on. So they usually gave fish and so only number of people is shown. But here also some people have escaped to Finland.
4. That can be searched in Meetrikaraamat?
Duplication of records about birth Sünnimeetrika?
In some cases there are information if people have come from other places (see also very beginning Saaga EAA.3.1.505:4 this is protocol of the revision) sometime those protocolls include information about movements. Here the handwriting is bad, but if you do not find familiar name, then it should not need to be translated. In some land revisions those protocols are just after or before manor materials. Sometimes those tabels include information if person has come from some other place. But generally the movement of people is difficult to find.
The last questions:
1. Next to last line about death of Kai – is it written, that it is wife Mardi Jaan?
It is written that she is widow of Mardi Jaan and 72 years old.
2. That in general mean reductions `p`, `t`, `lk` etc.?
Those are abbreviations from Estonian (seems that writer know Estonian, but it also seems that he used the old form of Estonian writing language - writting like German do).
p - poeg - son
t - tütar - daughter
Lk - lesk - widdow
N - naine - wife
in the same page also "sündides surnud" - stillborn
"pär.rist.surnud" - died after christning
"1 pääw wanna" - 1 day old
Thank You very much!
You write:
`The second pair: Tonno Marti Jaan Arist (German Ari, Estonian Aari) and Kusto t. Leno Karmo (Kusto daugther Leeno from Karmo)`
For me does not turn out to use Kupits. I write the name, press a search, but an empty page hatches.
Question:
Where is Arist (German Ari, Estonian Aari)?
You write:
`The second pair: Tonno Marti Jaan Arist (German Ari, Estonian Aari) and Kusto t. Leno Karmo (Kusto daugther Leeno from Karmo)`
For me does not turn out to use Kupits. I write the name, press a search, but an empty page hatches.
Question:
Where is Arist (German Ari, Estonian Aari)?
-
Tiiu Høvik
- Postitusi: 96
- Liitunud: Kolmapäev 06. Juuni 2007, 09:14:06
- Asukoht: Norway
- Status: Eemal
Here you have a link to show you where Aari is.
Aari (Ari) — support manor of Karula manor, in Haljala Parish Virumaa County
http://www.mois.ee/english/parish/haljala.shtml
Regards
Tiiu
Aari (Ari) — support manor of Karula manor, in Haljala Parish Virumaa County
http://www.mois.ee/english/parish/haljala.shtml
Regards
Tiiu
Dear mlauri!
Happy New Year! I wish You a lot of love and gladness!
As usual, there are questions on documents
1. Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.3; 1730-1754
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 1fae540ef0
Record from August, 11/15 about birth of Leno:
– after W. is Oiaaavse written?
- what does it mean – prename or name?
2. Revision im Jahre 1765. Revisionsakte des ...; EAA.3.1.498; 1765
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=5& ... 31d11b1d56
Record about Weja Reino Jaan:
- Weja – is it prename?
- that is written on the right – that «escaped to Finland»?
- whether this Weja Reino Jaan can to be father of Mihkel (Tolpi) from a record from 14.09. (next to last record on a page)
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.2; 1728-1771
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... d81f6947b0
from a record from (above of page 2)
Haljala, Kadrina, Rakvere kihelkond; EAA.1864.2.IV-4; 1782
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 99b66ef42e
Thank You very much!
Happy New Year! I wish You a lot of love and gladness!
As usual, there are questions on documents
1. Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.3; 1730-1754
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... 1fae540ef0
Record from August, 11/15 about birth of Leno:
– after W. is Oiaaavse written?
- what does it mean – prename or name?
2. Revision im Jahre 1765. Revisionsakte des ...; EAA.3.1.498; 1765
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=5& ... 31d11b1d56
Record about Weja Reino Jaan:
- Weja – is it prename?
- that is written on the right – that «escaped to Finland»?
- whether this Weja Reino Jaan can to be father of Mihkel (Tolpi) from a record from 14.09. (next to last record on a page)
Sünni-, abielu-, surmameetrika ja andmed ...; EAA.1224.3.2; 1728-1771
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=9& ... d81f6947b0
from a record from (above of page 2)
Haljala, Kadrina, Rakvere kihelkond; EAA.1864.2.IV-4; 1782
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/browser.php?tid=34 ... 99b66ef42e
Thank You very much!
1. It is written "Oiaäärse Kusto Kusto". Nowadays Estonian should be Ojaäärse or Ojaääre, this is probably name of farm. "Oja" means "stream" and "äärse" means "besides", so it is Stream-besides Kusto's Kusto. Kusto is shortened Estonian form from Gustav.
This is the same person who is father here Saaga EAA.1224.3.2:65 right page 2nd above.
2.
- Weja is probably prename - most likely indicating farm's name.
- he has run away for 12 years probably to Finland. (Finland was relatively close place to run away, and as another state, it was impossble to find people there; not talking about the size and low population density).
Here (Saaga EAA.1864.2.IV-4:8) Tölpi Jaani Adam and Michel (Mihkel) are brothers, so most likely Mihkel was also called as Tölpi Jaani Mihkel. It is possible that both names were shortened either Tölpi Adam/Mihkel or Jaani Adam/Mihkel.
But it is impossible to say that Weja Reino Jaan was their father.
Some suggestions how to use full possibilities of Saaga (unfortunatelly not explained in English), hope I will succeed to explain.
If you want copy a link into forum from Saaga then there is icon above, just right from Adobe-pdf icon (globe with chain), click on that icon and took the last one.
If you want to show exact place where to look on the page, then click on the icon next rigth of the previous (before last one) and you and sort of cut it out from the text. There will be two small icons below it, and then click on the globe-type icon and copy the link into forum.
So it looks like here: Saaga EAA.1224.3.2:65?1324,101,237,64,0
This is the same person who is father here Saaga EAA.1224.3.2:65 right page 2nd above.
2.
- Weja is probably prename - most likely indicating farm's name.
- he has run away for 12 years probably to Finland. (Finland was relatively close place to run away, and as another state, it was impossble to find people there; not talking about the size and low population density).
Here (Saaga EAA.1864.2.IV-4:8) Tölpi Jaani Adam and Michel (Mihkel) are brothers, so most likely Mihkel was also called as Tölpi Jaani Mihkel. It is possible that both names were shortened either Tölpi Adam/Mihkel or Jaani Adam/Mihkel.
But it is impossible to say that Weja Reino Jaan was their father.
Some suggestions how to use full possibilities of Saaga (unfortunatelly not explained in English), hope I will succeed to explain.
If you want copy a link into forum from Saaga then there is icon above, just right from Adobe-pdf icon (globe with chain), click on that icon and took the last one.
If you want to show exact place where to look on the page, then click on the icon next rigth of the previous (before last one) and you and sort of cut it out from the text. There will be two small icons below it, and then click on the globe-type icon and copy the link into forum.
So it looks like here: Saaga EAA.1224.3.2:65?1324,101,237,64,0