Perekonnaajaloo foorum

Добрый день!

Я украинец, но моя бабушка была эстонкой.
Родственников в Эстонии сейчас у меня нет, поэтому надеюсь на Вашу помощь.

Сейчас я ищу предков своих прадедушки и прабабушки. Они обое родились в Санкт-Петербургской губернии (Ингерманландии), сейчас это Волосовский район, а в 1911 году переехали в Эстонию.
Я попытался связаться с архивом в Санкт-Петербурге (где должны быть метрические книги приходов Ингерманландии), но они молчат.
Поэтому я начал искать в СААГА их вероятных родителей.

Но я не все понимаю в церковных записях.

1. По поводу прадедушки.
1.1. В списке членов парафии написано, что он – Eswa Julius Albert, сын Jula. Как я понимаю, Jula – это женское имя. Может ли быть так, что мать родила его без брака и соответственно дала ему «отчество»?
А в документах 1928 года прадедушка стал уже Eswa Julius Albert Alberti – он возможно поменял отчество на «нормальное».

1.2. Нашел воможных родственников в СААГА, но у них фамилия была Eswa(k) (Schwag) – так и писалось.
Причем в церковных книгах употребляется, как правило, Eswa(k), а в ревизских сказках - Schwag.
Чем объяснить такую взаимозаменяемость фамилии?

2. По поводу прабабушки
Sall (Esva – в замужестве) Aine-Marie Hans, которая родилась в 1887.
Я нашел в СААГА 2 человека по имени Sall Hans в церковных книгах Эстонии.
Но есть вопросы.
Например,
2.1. http://www.eha.ee/saaga/fondid.php?path ... 01/0000172
электронная страница 39, запись №48
1-я строка.
Что значит in Nomme, in Werki, in Nommejaan? место рождения?
Что значит дата «59.17.05»? Не смерть, потому что еще в 1865 были дети.
2-я строка.
Указаны две жены – Трино и Анна?
3-я строка.
Что написано справа в строке - о переезде в Петербург? На самом деле, это – самая важная для меня информация.
Последние 2 строки
Кроот – это сестра Яаана? Но почему она приписана не к семье мужа?

2.1. http://www.eha.ee/saaga/fondid.php?path ... 01/0000211
электронная страница 312
Что написано в крайнем правом столбце - о переезде в Петербург?


Большое спасибо!

Good afternoon!

I am sorry for the UnEstonian language. Just in case, I write at once in two languages.

I am Ukrainian, but my grandmother was Estonian.
I don`t have the relatives in Estonia now, therefore I hope for Your help.

Now I search ancestors of my great-grandfathers and my grand-mother. They both borned in the Saint Petersburg province (Ingermanlandia), now it Volosovskiy district, and in 1911 they moved to Estonia.
I made an effort contact with an archive in Saint Petersburg (where metrical books Ingermanlandia must be), but they are quiet.
Therefore I began to search their credible parents in SAAGA.

But I understand not everything in church records.

2. Concerning a my great-grandfather.
1.1. It is written in the list of members of parish, that he – Eswa Julius Albert, son Jula. As I understand, Jula is the womanish name. It can be so, that a mother gave birth him without marriage and accordingly gave him a «patronymic»?
And in the documents of 1928 great-grandfather became already Eswa Julius Albert Alberti – he possibly changed a patronymic on «normal».

1.2. I found credible relatives in SAAGA, but for them the last name was Eswa(k) (Schwag) – written so.
Thus in church books used, as a rule, Esw(a), and in `revizskie skazki` - Schwag.
What to explain such interchangeability of the last name?

2. Concerning grand-mother
Sall (Esva – in the married life) Aine-Marie Hans, which borned in 1887.
I found in SAAGA 2 men by name Sall Hans in the church books of Estonia.
But there are questions.
For example,
2.2. http://www.eha.ee/saaga/fondid.php?path ... 01/0000172
electronic page 39, record 48
1th line.
That does mean in Nomme, in Werki, in Nommejaan? birth-place?
That means date «59.17.05»? not death, because as early as 1865 there were children.
2th line.
Аre two womens indicated – Trino and Ann?
3th line.
That is written on the right in a line - about a move to Petersburg? Actually, it is the most important for me information.
Last 2 lines
Kroot is a sister Yaan? But why is it added not to family of husband?

2.2. http://www.eha.ee/saaga/fondid.php?path ... 01/0000211
electronic page 312
That is written in an extreme right column - about a move to Petersburg?


Thanks!

Hello Pavlo,

it is a bit difficult to answer Your first questions without seeing the actual documents with one's own eyes, but I try to answer some of the questions about Your grandmothers (potential) ancestors in Keila:

Jaan Sall, Mart's son, born 22.12.1811. Why the place name Nömme appears here as his birthplace, I can not explain. Perhaps it is due to some later changes of parish borders. Anyway, both Jaan Sall and his assumed sister Krööt (Greet) Sall are recorded to be born in Jälgimäggi, Keila parish. Their births can be found on page 396 in Keila church book EELK.1214.2.7.
Jaan Sall's profession is Hofs Kubjas, an overseer at a manor house.

Trino was his first wife, Anna his second wife. The date 17.5.1859 is the day of his second marriage, on page 18 in Keila church book EELK.1214.1.166.

His eldest son Hans, born 12.7.1846, is a tailor in St.Petersburg (Schneider in Peterburg). For moving to St.Petersburg he has been given an extract from Keila church register (Parochialschein) in 18.3.1878.

Krööt (or Greet) Sall, Mart's daughter, born 15.10.1814 (Nömme falsely? given as her birthplace), likely to be Jaan Sall's sister. She has a son Jaan, born out of wedlock (unehelich) 17.1.1842. In 1864 she has married a retired soldier Juhhan (or more rightly Mihkel) Pikker from Tallinn (Reval). They were wed in Tallinn 28.6.1864; this can be found on page 87 in Keila church book EELK 1214.1.166. Presumably she lived in Tallin after that. On the last line I read l(ebt) in Kirbo, in Reval, but I think the sentence means her son Jaan's whereabouts.

The writing in Põltsamaa church book indicates that the person has got an extract from the church register 16.9.1885 for moving to St.Petersburg.

I hope this helps You on a bit with Your research.

Hello, Kirsti Ervola!

Thank you very much for Your letter!

You very helped me!

1. I got a lot of information, and including, that Hans Sall from Keila indeed can be my ancestor.

3. Yet
http://www.eha.ee/saaga/fondid.php?path ... 01/0000211
As I now understood on these records - Sall Lena married Hans, at which some other last name, that in these records it is not Sall Hans.
Am I right?

2. Concerning my ancestors Esva – do I can to send you necessary files to your e-meil?


Thanks!

Hello Pavlo,
the notes in Põltsamaa church book are a bit cryptical, but for Hans there is a reference to page 332 in the same book. There (on the el.page 348) Hans Saks, born in August 1858, son of Hans and Mal, is with his wife and children. Hans Saks and Maria Wössa were married 17.5.1882 (EELK.1168.1.143, page 31).

So, I think there is no connection between Lena Sall and Hans Saks, whose name just happens to be above hers in the churchbook.

You can put links to the other documents on this discussion site or under the Privat messages (pm). No guarantees given, but I can take a look at them 8)

Hello, Kirsti Ervola

Thank you very much for Your letter.

1. I understood that while my credible unique ancestor is Hans Sall from Keila.

2. Concerning my ancestors Esva – do I can to send you necessary files to you on e-meil?


Thanks!