Lost Estonian ancestors - tips anyone?

[bengt]

Congratulations!

Aitäh!

Vater Wirth Ristian, Mutter Rööt, beide leben - father is the farmer Ristian (Oja), mother Rõõt, both living

The whole family is here Saaga EAA.1275.1.548:89?22,392,1062,736,0

Thanks!!! But this is a bit strange, since according to the family page, I read that Ristohwer is the father of Kadri (twin) born 14.VI.1827, and Rööt ist the mother, while Ristian's (30.IV.1774) wife was Ann? Maybe that's why the marriage note is so blurred, because the priest wrote the wrong name of the father in the marriage record?

[Katsa]

Oops! Sorry - father's name should be Ristohwer, of course! Yes, it seems, that even the priest himself was confused.

[bengt]

Oops! Sorry - father's name should be Ristohwer, of course! Yes, it seems, that even the priest himself was confused.

Hahaha, well, it couldn't be easy keeping track of all those people for the poor priest.

Would you have any idea to which book the references p.140 and p.85 might go to? Apparently it's not the same book...

[Katsa]

They should refer to the pages of the previous church book, but apparently they don't. I think, p. 85 is the next page in this book Saaga EAA.1275.1.548:90?113,514,949,60,0, but I can't find anything reasonable on the p. 140, not in this book nor in the previous one. The family is listed here Saaga EAA.1275.1.544:95?22,295,941,602,0 in the older book.

[bengt]

Thanks for finding the older book for me too.

I have had problems with all the references in this book (EAA.1275.1.548:89)before. I wonder if anyone knows where they are pointing to, since apparently it's not a reference within the book itself, and neither to the previous church book...

[bengt]

I found this birth record, and I have a hard time interpreting what it says: EAA.1275.1.166:73. Something with "Loppa ____ Hans wb Lena zwillinger". And I presume "Loppa" is the farm name - as usual?

I was looking for the birth of Els around 1786, with father Hans, and since nobody moved very far I searched the books from the area where everyone else lives. I have found no births of Els at all except this one, and with the father named Hans the match seems a little to close to be a coincidence - or? Of course I would like to have hard evidence, but since the books are so old it's hard for me to have anything else to go at. This is where I found out about her name and approximate age: EAA.1865.5.166:17.

Might I be on the right track?

[Katsa]

Look at my posting from Oct 11, 2010 - according to the marriage record and Els's death record she was born in Neu-Bornhusen, not in Abja. And her mother should be Rõõt. This Hans you've found is Lopa Jänese Hans - Loppa Jaennese Hans. But I don't think he is the right one.

This Jakob was married twice. His second wife was Els Hunt, born 26.11.1809 in Uue-Kariste (Neu-Karrishof) Saaga EAA.1275.1.529:14?390,1623,1873,116,0. She was obviously not the mother of Jaan - Jaan was born much earlier. Jakobs first wife's name was also Els, she was born about 1786 (?). Els died 17.04.1835 Saaga EAA.1275.1.103:46?192,1654,1965,75,0

Jakob and Els in the parish member list from 1815-1837 Saaga EAA.1275.1.544:104?1105,343,1012,622,0 and in the previous parish member list from 1808-1825 Saaga EAA.1275.1.543:28?1129,197,532,318,0

I suppose that the marriage record of Jakob and Els is to be found here Saaga EAA.1275.2.4:17?132,760,1076,55,0 - as you probably know, the Estonian peasants got their family names 1826 in Governorate of Livonia, before that they were identified by a combination of farm name, father's name and given name or by the profession or by a combination of given name and farm name where they worked as servants or maids (as in this case). This makes the tracing of roots sometimes difficult but exciting. If Jakob's and Els' first child were born in 1802, then it is highly probable that their marriage took place appr. year or two before that. There are no other records within the five years period before their first child was born, which correspond to the known facts - given names Jakob and Els and their birth place/residence.

Jakob's birth record Saaga EAA.1275.2.3:161?43,1324,1063,113,0

I have doubts about Els' birth year 1786. I think she was born earlier. She would have been only 15 by the time of her marriage - this was too young even in 18th century, although it cannot be totally excluded. I would search for the matching birth record in the period between 1779-1786. Els' mother's name was Rõõt or Reet Saaga EAA.1275.1.543:28?1174,462,406,57,0 - s(eine) Schwiegermutter Rõõt - his (Jakob's) mother-in-law Rõõt. Els' father's name was Hans (take a look at the soul revision list from 1816). Now we have at least one possible match Saaga EAA.1275.2.3:167?29,737,1063,95,0. Unfortunately I cannot find birth record from 1785 and 1786. It may need a special invistigation to prove that this is the right person.

[bengt]

Look at my posting from Oct 11, 2010 - according to the marriage record and Els's death record she was born in Neu-Bornhusen, not in Abja. And her mother should be Rõõt. This Hans you've found is Lopa Jänese Hans - Loppa Jaennese Hans. But I don't think he is the right one.

So true. I think I got all this information so early and I never did follow it up completely. Well, better late than never... You're right of course, my record can't be right in the light of this.

I suppose that the marriage record of Jakob and Els is to be found here Saaga EAA.1275.2.4:17?132,760,1076,55,0 - as you probably know, the Estonian peasants got their family names 1826 in Governorate of Livonia, before that they were identified by a combination of farm name, father's name and given name or by the profession or by a combination of given name and farm name where they worked as servants or maids (as in this case). This makes the tracing of roots sometimes difficult but exciting. If Jakob's and Els' first child were born in 1802, then it is highly probable that their marriage took place appr. year or two before that. There are no other records within the five years period before their first child was born, which correspond to the known facts - given names Jakob and Els and their birth place/residence.

I'm wondering about what the record says, since it doesn't mention Jakob's father Saduu (Sado) Jaak? I interpret the text as "PillaKeste ______ j____ Jakob mit Mikks Peter Johannes(?) ___ Els"...

I have doubts about Els' birth year 1786. I think she was born earlier. She would have been only 15 by the time of her marriage - this was too young even in 18th century, although it cannot be totally excluded. I would search for the matching birth record in the period between 1779-1786. Els' mother's name was Rõõt or Reet Saaga EAA.1275.1.543:28?1174,462,406,57,0 - s(eine) Schwiegermutter Rõõt - his (Jakob's) mother-in-law Rõõt. Els' father's name was Hans (take a look at the soul revision list from 1816). Now we have at least one possible match Saaga EAA.1275.2.3:167?29,737,1063,95,0. Unfortunately I cannot find birth record from 1785 and 1786. It may need a special invistigation to prove that this is the right person.

Considering the first link (EAA.1275.1.543), where it says that Els was 27 when Jakob was 28, it is highly likely that your possible match of the birth of Els on Feb 5 1780 is the correct Els, with parents Hans and Reet (66 years old in the first link = born ca 1742). Especially since I recognize the name Kaubi farm name. (Can you read what the whole record says?) But then I don't understand why it needs a special investigation?

[Katsa]

Pillakesse Hindrick s. Junge Jacob mit Mikko Peter Johanns Magd Els - Pillakese Hindriks's boy Jacob with Miku Peetri Juhan's maid Els

The tricky thing about Halliste is that unlike in most of other parishes the priests of Halliste used to describe persons in their birth, marriage and death records by the place where they worked as servants or maids. This makes the tracing of roots complicated, and sometimes impossible. Usually the persons were identified by their fathers like "this farm's Hans's son Jaan" etc. which makes it quite easy to follow their family life. This was not the case in Halliste - young people used to work in different places by the time of their confirmation, marriage and when their first children were born. And every time they were identified by a differnet set of name! So you never know whether you have found the right person.

That is why I'm not 100% sure, that this is the right Jakob and the right Els. To be sure you have to find out whether they were the only couple - Jakob and Els - in Kaubi area at this time.

[bengt]

The tricky thing about Halliste is that unlike in most of other parishes the priests of Halliste used to describe persons in their birth, marriage and death records by the place where they worked as servants or maids.

Thanks for the deciphering - and especially for that explanation about the Halliste priests! That really helps a lot! Fortunately I haven't run in to this problem until now, but it also explains another problem I had, where I knew I had found the right persons (correct location, date and names) but the text before the bride's name didn't make sense, and her last name was listed specifically (EAA.1275.1.535). I later found her parent's names.

Since you seem extremely good at reading these texts, while I can make out the names and some keywords, I would be very curious to know (1) what these notes say too: EAA.1275.1.553:219. The short notes I don't have a clue what they say. The small note says something like Hans' Smulpenberg(? ) wb Hans Sangernebo (which of course doesn't make sense since it two Hans' wouldn't be married...) The link in the previous paragraph shows that her last name was Sangernebo, and in her birth record EAA.1275.2.7:7 I see that her parent's were Tekki Hans and Hedda. (All the dates match up together with the locations.)

My only remaining quest right now is (2) to figure out who this Jaan Oia is: EAA.1275.1.548:12. Apparently there are many families with the same last name, but I've been browsing several books for Neu and Alt Bornhusen as well as Karrishof, but I haven't managed to find him. There is a weak note on the side, and since Lena's name has been overlined, I assume she moved away with him (somewhere). Might it say Pärnu in the note?

[Katsa]

Mina was Kuksi (farm) Kasper Sangernebo's widow and Hans Sulsinberg's daughter.
Saaga EAA.1275.1.548:44?47,1302,954,108,0
Saaga EAA.1275.1.548:33?111,1437,648,82,0

Jaan Oia and her Lena are listed here Saaga EAA.1275.1.553:66?136,682,1064,169,0

[bengt]

Mina was Kuksi (farm) Kasper Sangernebo's widow and Hans Sulsinberg's daughter.
Saaga EAA.1275.1.548:44?47,1302,954,108,0
Saaga EAA.1275.1.548:33?111,1437,648,82,0

Jaan Oia and her Lena are listed here Saaga EAA.1275.1.553:66?136,682,1064,169,0

I'm still in awe over how quickly you find these things! I am getting better, but apparently not that good - yet... Thanks, once again you helped me incredibly! That helped me prove that Lena Kütt married her father's brother's wife's brother.

By the way - to find out when people died, unless it is written in the personaalraamatud, is the only way to get lucky by reading the surmameetrika?

[Katsa]

By the way - to find out when people died, unless it is written in the personaalraamatud, is the only way to get lucky by reading the surmameetrika?

Yes - record by record... until you loose your consciousness

Well, in some cases you may get a hint from other sources like census lists, civil parish member lists, etc.

[bengt]

By the way - to find out when people died, unless it is written in the personaalraamatud, is the only way to get lucky by reading the surmameetrika?

Yes - record by record... until you loose your consciousness

Well, in some cases you may get a hint from other sources like census lists, civil parish member lists, etc.

That's what I thought. Well, thanks to the fantastic people in this forum I think I have now more or less managed to complete what I intended to do on my mother's father's side. Of course there is always more to explore, and to go further back in time, but since it seems hard to go further back than 1700-s, I think I should feel quite proud and happy now. And I'll save the unconsciousness for a bit later... (For completing the death dates...)

My next challenge now is to try to find some (any) information about my grandmother (ema ema ) side. She was born in Riga 12.05.1912. I have browsed a similar database to RA.ee, but so far I haven't had any luck with it. All I know apart from my grandmother's name, date and approximate birth location is that her parents were Donat and Petronella Koslowski (not sure of the spelling) and that they lived in Tartu, Estonia (from unknown) until 1946 when they escaped.

Any hints on this is highly appreciated, as neither I nor my mother know anything beyond that... And my knowledge of the Latvian language is limited to a word or two.