Perekonnaajaloo foorum

Ah, so maybe if I look a little further back they might be lutheran again. Hope so, because it would be a lot easier for me to read. Estonian is hard enough, but I can at least make out the letters and recognize some words. But russian is quite impossible! Ok, that is pretty much what I was guessing it said (in their marriage record).

Thanks for reading Melanies birth-record for me Katsa! Interesting that they seemed to have moved, maybe they converted at the same time.. And I didn´t know there were roots from so far south in Estonia.

Hi,

I found a municipaliti Pöögle (Böcklershof, Karksi parisch) family letters this family Saaga EAA.3557.1.90:18?490,1877,3852,1187,0
farher Annus, mother Maret, sons and daughter. One son´s name is Jaak, in russian Jakov Saaga EAA.3557.1.90:18?874,2753,1938,90,0. It says that they haved converted to Greek Orthodoxy and here is the statement that Jaak will move in 1873 Kerstenhof.
As Melania´s father´s name is Jakov Annusov (Annus´son), I think it should be searchable family Saaga EAA.1974.1.15:156?981,498,253,50,0.
The surname was written as a Kärk and Kerk. Saaga EAA.3557.1.91:10?553,1664,3643,1427,0
Here is the family Karksi church personal book Saaga EAA.1276.1.328:169?30,482,1756,362,0, and it seems before the birth of Jaak, the family changed the faith (the orthodox lutheran).
The family is geni.com too http://www.geni.com/search?search_type= ... +k%C3%A4rk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There is so only for children Johan http://www.geni.com/search?search_type= ... +k%C3%A4rk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, but Melania had brother Juhan (Johan), who was born in 1873 and had a wife Melanie and daughter Maria Saaga EAA.1974.1.25:7?403,1587,809,327,0

Airi
Sorry, my englisch is not very good

That was very helpful information Airi, thank you!

So I´m guessing this Jaak Kärk could also be Melanies father?
http://www.geni.com/people/Jaak-K%C3%A4 ... 3557454178
Since he is the son of Annus and Marret Kärk... But his wifes name is Liis and not Elisaveta..? Could he have been married twice? Or is Liis short for Elisaveta?

Also according to this: Saaga EAA.1974.1.28:6, he was 64 in 1911 (the year the book is from), which would make his birth year 1847. And the Geni-Jaak has a birth year of circa 1849, could it still be the same person?

Estonian Liis (Liisa, Liso and similar names) corresponds precisely to orthodox/russian Jelizaveta (Elisaveta). Sometimes orthodox names are even not directly related to people 'normal', estonian names.
circa 1849 and circa 1847 (because ages of older people were often approximate) match very well either. As can I see, on geni birth year is already changed.

Yes I merged the profiles already. There was enough matching family connections and I thought the birthyear and name must be similar. The only thing a little confusing was it said somewhere Jaak was Joachims son?

Maybe someone more knowledgeable in russian orthodox names can say, what estonian name corresponds to russian Joakim? I would not be very surprised, if it would be Annus
If you can find his [Joakim] birth record (in orthodox books) (or baptization record, if he was converted from lutherian), then there often are both names written down.

Pöögle mainor Greek orthodox personalbook in 1856-1858 Saaga EAA.1927.1.46:9?202,294,1926,684,0 :
Annus Kärk, sulane (servant), Joakim (russian), age 51
wife Maret, Marina, 47
their children Tina, Tatjana, 23
Juhhan, Ivan, 20
Annus, Joakim, 16
Markus, Mark, 13
Jaak, Jakov, 9, born 24.IX.1847

Father Annus born 14.V.1805 Saaga EAA.1276.2.3:132?1129,666,1035,93,0. His fathers name was Hannus and mothers name Tina.
Hannus born 20.II.1764 Saaga EAA.1276.2.1:70?26,69,989,99,0. His fathers name was Kirbo Jürri and mothers name Marri.
List of convent on the Greek Orthodox in 1846 Saaga EAA.1927.1.31:11?135,850,1540,513,0.
Annus Kärk, russian Joann, 45
wife Maret , Maria, 35
children Peeter, Pjotr, 18
Maret. Maria, 15
Juhan, Joann, 6
Margus, Mark, 3
Tiina, Tatjana, 13
As you can see, the names and age varies, depending on the writer. Joann or Joakim, Maria or Marina, Joann or Ivan.

Airi

Some revision sheets too (earlier ones seems to be not extant):
1816: Saaga EAA.1865.3.196/4:15?43,468,2469,788,0
1811 (male people only; Annus in middle): Saaga EAA.1865.5.177:4?70,1368,1058,550,0

Aha! So Annus translates to Joakim, interesting! Most of the russian/estonian translations you can see the resemblance in the names, but that was a little too different... Thanks for reading out the personalbook Airi, that was a lot of useful biographical data for me.

But is Hannus fathers surname Jürri and first name Kirbo? Or is it the other way around?

Kirbo is farm name and Jürri first name. There were no surnames before 1826 (Livland) or 1834 (Estland). People were known by farm and first name; if they moved, then sometimes (esp in northern part of estonia - Estland) farm names changed too. Not so easy track roots at these times.

Oh, that makes it more difficult! Interesting that people would change name if they moved...

Can someone help me read the maiden name of Jüris wife Mari? "Näine" or "Nöme" maybe...?

Saaga EAA.1286.1.385:122?621,2041,366,118,0

I was trying to look up her birth certificate, assuming she is also born in Heimthal, and Paistu kogudus, shouldn´t she be on this page? I was looking for a Mari with a surname that starts with N, but only find this Marri (on what I think is the 15th of april 1837):
Saaga EAA.1286.1.351:103?1006,417,908,146,0

And are there no birth certificates before 1834 in this kogudus? I was trying to look up Jüris birth cerificate from 1827....

Marri Nõmme (can be written Nömme, Nõme, Nöme - line over m makes it long).
It is possible that either birth date is wrong or she is not born in Heimthal or she had changed her name already.
Their marriage:
Saaga EAA.1286.1.88:24?1338,1216,1152,78,0
Saaga EAA.1286.1.357:154?60,660,1900,108,0
Looks that your linked birth record is correct - birth date, parent names and birth place are same as in marriage record, just surname is different. (Happened to one my grand-grand...parent too.)

Sure there are birth registers from 1710 - look at all these "meetrika" books
http://www.ra.ee/dgs/explorer.php?tid=1 ... 5a3daa5f3e" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes since the parents have the same names in the marriage record, a Marri born on that day has to be the right one, it can´t be a coincidence! I wonder why she would have changed her last name, she wasn´t married before according to the marriage record. Does it say "Torrimo knecht Jürri Torbek" and "Kija mädchen Marri Nõmme", where Torrimo and Kija are the farm names?

Ah, so he must be in this book then Saaga EAA.1286.2.9:1. But is there an easy way to find the page where Heimthal begins? And is it organized by farm first, then year, or can a farm appear several times? Or do I have to flip through all the 391 pages?

Torrimo (can't be sure about spelling) and Kisa (Kiisa) are probably farm names, yes. This long 'j'-like letter is usually 's'; 'h' too is written in somewhat similar way.

Metrical books are usually organized into chapters (births/baptization - Getausste, marriages - Copulierte, deaths/burials - Begrabene and some more; there can be different chapter names, based on latin too; sometimes there are different chapters for estonian (unteutche) and german (teutche) events; sometimes books are split by manors); each chapter is usually ordered by date. One book may contain many chapters for similar events, especially older ones.

Your books seem have different chapters for each manor - a bit more work to find right chapter. You can use thumbnails (Pisipildid) view to see, where each manor begins.
Heimthal starts here: Saaga EAA.1286.2.9:326

Your needed record is here: Saaga EAA.1286.2.9:345?1272,798,1124,176,0
Unfortunately there is not written, who is father of Johhan (Juhan) - it is stated only, that he is farmhand (Kn = Knecht - I don't know correct translation into english) of Torrino Margus.
To find, who were his parents, it is usually best to find marriage record (if you don't have personal book or census records from same period - these boooks are ususally more informative).

Welcome to wonderful world of not having surnames or even permanent call names

/edit/
Census records of 1834 - Torrimo farms start here: Saaga EAA.1865.3.212/1:23?202,1032,658,104,0.
There are problems with Marri - neither Kisa farm nor Pöro/Nõmme surname cannot be found in Paistu-Heimthal censos records (well, I couldn't find while quick scan). Sometimes civil areas do not match church areas, thereby it is possible that Kisa farm is under some other manor in different census book - will look further.
/edit/
Stupid me - in birth record is written Euseküll - it is Õisu manor, census from 1826: Saaga EAA.1865.3.211/6:24?286,1108,2218,86,0. You can look at later ones to ensure that Marri is from there; in these records (1826 were family names established) family name is Nõmme.
/edit/
And "Peter Maddise poeg Nõmme" moved here from Carlsberg - Kaarli in Pärnumaa, Halliste - Saaga EAA.1865.3.171/8a:43?206,414,1130,114,0. Enough digging for today

Ah, so it´s that german double-S letter, of course...

Oh, I hadn´t noticed the thumbnail-view, that makes it really helpful to quickly scan a book for the start of every chapter!

And thanks for the help with finding more records on Marri Nõmme! So Maris father Peeter is Maddise´s son? And his name should have been Peter Nõmme not Peter Pöro?

Peeter is Maddis' son, yes. Before 1826 he had probably called Suurematsi (Surematzi) Peter - at least that is farmstead name, where he was recorded in 1816 census (left column in 1826 census book displays 1816 year data), there you should continue then. Like I said, no surnames before 1826; in some metrical records there are no surnames even up to 1840-1850 or so. Well, there were some free people, having surnames before 1826 - none in my ancestry however, maybe you have better luck

"Pöro" (or "Päro") in birth metric was probably writer error, happened sometimes. All other records point to "Nõmme".