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	Mon, 10 May 2010 13:01:25 +0300 (EEST)
From: "Sybille-Dagmar Leino" <sdl@isik.ee>
To: fred@isik.ee
Subject: Fw: RE: Jurgenson's in Saaremaa
Date: Mon, 10 May 2010 13:01:25 +0300
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oled sa taga suhelnud muidu?
=20
=20
=20
=20
 -------- Forwarded Message --------
 From: "Kim" <kim@jkraft.co.uk>
 To: "kim@jkraft.co.uk" <kim@jkraft.co.uk>, "info@isik.ee" <info@isik.ee>
 Date: 10.05.2010 12:50:12
 Subject: RE: Jurgenson's in Saaremaa=20
=20
 Hi Fred,
=20
 I have new information and some further thoughts:
=20
 I have just been told my great-grandparents were orthodox christians.
=20
 I also wondered about passport records, my grandfather was in the merchant
 navy from a very early age, did that require a passport? Would that be =
easy
 to trace? For some reason when he docked in Estonian in 1919 he got a copy
 of his birth certificate. I wonder why he needed that? Did he need to
 change his passport to an Estonian passport... before 1918 passports would
 presumably be Russian. Hopefully passports existed in Estonia at that time
 and records were kept, making this an easy place to start.
=20
 Best Regards
 Kim
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Kim [mailto:kim@jkraft.co.uk]
 Sent: 08 May 2010 12:21
 To: info@isik.ee
 Subject: RE: Jurgenson's in Saaremaa
=20
=20
 Hi Fred,
=20
 I am writing further because it now seems to me that it is of growing
 importance to know which dates prove my descendants are Estonian. Prior to
 the UK Estonian embassy totally contradicting my view I was very clear it
 was citizens living in Estonia prior to 1940. I have now come across the
 principle of "jus sanguinis", which provides that one is naturally
 Estonian if they were citizens during the earlier period of Estonia's
 independence, after 1918 (Feb 24th) and before 1940 (June 16th ). Again
 opposite to what the UK Embassy said, I think I need to check with them
 again, or maybe you already can confirm this for me.
=20
 The principle of "jus sanguinis" as per extract below definitely makes my
 great-grandparents Estonian and I think my grandfather. Although in the
 case of my grandfather it becomes unclear as he lived at sea on a merchant
 ship, eventually taking permanent residence with my grandmother in England
 when they married in 1922. I wonder what it means for his immediate right
 to claim Estonian nationality if he spent most of his time at sea only
 living on soil (probably lots of foreign territories) when his ship =
docked.
 Is he Estonian, does his citizenship come from his parents, or maybe not
 since at the time of his birth in 1895 he was born to non-Estonians i.e..
 nobody was Estonian until independence in 1918.
=20
 My great-grandfather Jacob died in Estonia in 1938 and is buried in
 Estonian soil, unfortunately all we have to show for this is a church
 service document, but maybe this has some information on it that we cannot
 read, do you think it is of importance, do you think his residence might =
be
 the easiest to prove? Is it easy to find a grave, does it prove anything =
if
 it was found?
=20
 =E2=80=9CLatvia and Estonia recognise citizenship according to the =
principle of
 jus sanguinis for the persons who held citizenship before 1940 and their
 descendants. (is a social policy by which nationality or citizenship is =
not
 determined by place of birth, but by having an ancestor who is a national =
or
 citizen of the state). Persons who arrived after the occupation of 1940 =
and
 their descendants may obtain citizenship through naturalisation. This =
policy
 affects not only ethnic Russians, but also the descendants of those ethnic
 Estonians and Latvians who emigrated from these countries before
 independence was proclaimed in 1918. Dual citizenship is also not allowed,
 except for those countries (such as the USA) traditionally holding large
 numbers of emigrants=E2=80=9D.
=20
 Best Regards
 Kim
 -----Original Message-----
 From: Kim [mailto:kim@jkraft.co.uk]
 Sent: 07 May 2010 22:49
 To: info@isik.ee
 Subject: Jurgenson's in Saaremaa
=20
=20
 Hi Fred,
=20
 Thank you for your time today.
=20
 To Recap... I wish to trace my Estonian family, and achieve the
 following:
=20
 1) Documentation to prove I am of Estonian descent so I can get an
 Estonian passport. The passport won't serve any real purpose as I am a
 British Citizen and already in the EU, but my grandfather was Estonian =
and I
 would like to remember him this way. The Estonian embassy said I must =
prove
 I descend from a resident in Estonia on or after 1940. Although I think
 the Estonian Embassy should know best, please can you confirm this is
 correct, because my research leads me to believe they had to be resident
 before the loss of independence in June of 1940. For example the following
 extract is from the official gateway to Estonia website.
=20
 http://estonia.eu/about-estonia/society/citizenship.html
=20
 "After the restoration of Estonia's independence, persons who held
 Estonian citizenship before 16 June 1940 and their descendants were
 automatically considered to be Estonian citizens. Thus, roughly two-thirds
 of the 1.5 million Estonian inhabitants restored Estonian citizenship in
 1992. All other Estonian residents could obtain Estonian citizenship =
through
 the naturalisation process. . "
=20
 2) I hope to find living relatives, nobody ever found out what happened
 to my grandfather's brothers, but I think they remained in Estonia and
 hopefully they have descendants.
=20
 In our discussions you said initial work would typically take 5-6 hours,
 therefore I authorise you to begin work as soon as you can for upto 6 =
hours.
 I wish to use your express service for works complete in around a month, I
 understand this will incur an additional cost of 15% on top of your normal
 fee. Please begin with the proof needed for my Estonian passport.
=20
 Please provide all correspondence/ reports in English.
=20
 I think the Estonia Embassy in England will require hard copies for the
 proof needed for an Estonian passport, but you will know this better than =
me
 . Please let me know the cost of this if it exceeds =C2=A320. Do they =
require
 this in Estonian or English?
=20
 I would also like digital copies of my great-grandparents birth and
 marriage certificates if you find them and anything else interesting.
 (digital budget =C2=A315.00).
=20
 Aside from the proof needed for the Embassy I don't need anything in
 hard-copy format. Everything can be sent by email ... any report, copies
 etc.
=20
 Below is a family tree and the only information I have to assist your
 search.
=20
 My aunt has all of the documents mentioned below, I will be visiting her
 within the next few weeks( she is in the north I am in the south) and will
 be able to send you an image of them if it would help, let me know.
=20
 Best Regards.
=20
 Kimberley Wraith Riddell
 18 Fernbrook Road
 Caversham
 Reading
 Berkshire
 RG4 7HG
 UK
 +44 1189 472882
=20
 My grandfather Johan Jurgenson was born in Estonia, he lived on Saaremaa
 island and became a sailor (ship's carpenter) in the merchant navy. He met
 my English grandmother when he docked in the port of South Shields in
 England. They married in 1922 and then lived together in England for the
 rest of their lives. I don't know the exact date he left Estonia.
=20
 After he left my great-grandparents, Jacob Jurgenson and Elena Jurgenson
 (Bogdanova) continued to live in Estonia as did my grandfather's six
 brothers, one of whom was called Alex. My great-grandparents definitely
 lived on Saaremaa island as did Alex, I am not sure if all his brothers
 remained there. Alex worked on merchant ships and later so did his wife.
=20
 My grandfather was the oldest son, we think Alex was next and the
 youngest son we believe was born around 1916 maybe sometime just after but
 not by much. That places the births of all seven sons between the years
 1895 - 1917. There is a feeling that the family lived on the southern
 peninsula of Saaremaa and all children were born there, but we have no
 evidence of this so we could be wrong. One of the five unamed sons was =
deaf.
=20
 My great-grandfather Jacob Jurgenson died in 1938 in Estonia, I presume
 Saaremaa, as that is where he lived.
=20
 My great-uncle Alex, his wife (Johana ...not sure how to spell it) and
 my great-grandmother eventually fled Estonia from the Russians, they left =
in
 his fishing boat for Sweden. They lived the rest of their lives in
 Norrkoping. I do not know the date of their departure. My grandfathers
 other five brothers did not leave with them.
=20
 Regarding residency dates, I believe my great-grandmother Elena
 Jurgenson was resident before and after 1940, I think she must have left =
in
 a boat for Sweden during the second occupation of Russians in 1944, =
because
 there was a period when she reverted back to her Russian maiden name
 Bogdanova ( or so the story goes ) probably during the 40-41 occupation.
 No-one is absolutely sure because my family lost touch with them during =
the
 second world war until Alex's ship docked in the UK in 1945. My
 great-grandfather Jacob and grandfather Johan were only resident prior to
 1940.
=20
 In the following years my great-uncle Alex visited my grandparents in
 England and in turn they visited him and my great-grandmother in Sweden, =
but
 nobody ever heard from the five estranged brothers again. The last address
 in Sweden for Alex Jurgenson is haga.gaten.51.602-5, Norrkoping. After he
 died his wife Johana moved to gabiclsbugsgat 13, Norrkoping. She is now =
dead
 too. They had no children. They both died before Estonia became =
independent
 again.
=20
 My aunt (English) went to Estonia a few years after it regained
 independence, and attempted to find relatives but was unsuccessful. She =
did
 not seek any help to do this, so it is understandable that she did not
 succeed when over fifty years had passed by.
=20
 My aunt has my grandfather's birth certificate but it's in a language
 foreign to us so we cannot get understand any information on it other than
 his date of birth, 1st October 1885 and that it was issued in 1919.
=20
 We have an order of service from my great-grandmother's funeral, it
 states she was born in Torgu, Estonia on the 26th June 1874, she died in
 Sweden.
=20
 My great-grandfather Jacob died in 13th Feb 1938 in Estonia we have a
 burial service (it says matmine ) which also has the word Matmifel on it, =
I
 thought that might be a place but I cannot find any parish or manor with
 that name, so maybe it means something else.
=20


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Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

oled sa taga suhelnud muidu?<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
-------- Forwarded Message --------<br />
From:    "Kim" &lt;kim@jkraft.co.uk&gt;<br />
To:      "kim@jkraft.co.uk" &lt;kim@jkraft.co.uk&gt;, "info@isik.ee" =
&lt;info@isik.ee&gt;<br />
Date:    10.05.2010 12:50:12<br />
Subject: RE: Jurgenson's in Saaremaa <br />
<br />
Hi Fred,<br />
<br />
I have new information and some further thoughts:<br />
<br />
I have just been told my great-grandparents were orthodox christians.<br />
<br />
I also wondered about passport records, my grandfather was in the =
merchant<br />
navy from a very early age, did that require a passport?  Would that be =
easy<br />
to trace?  For some reason when he docked in Estonian in 1919 he got a =
copy<br />
of his birth certificate.  I wonder why he needed that?  Did he need to<br =
/>
change his passport to an Estonian passport... before 1918 passports =
would<br />
presumably be Russian.   Hopefully passports existed in Estonia at that =
time<br />
and records were kept, making this an easy place to start.<br />
<br />
Best Regards<br />
Kim<br />
-----Original Message-----<br />
From: Kim [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:kim@jkraft.co.uk">kim@jkraft.co.uk</a>]<br />
Sent: 08 May 2010 12:21<br />
To: <a href=3D"mailto:info@isik.ee">info@isik.ee</a><br />
Subject: RE: Jurgenson's in Saaremaa<br />
<br />
<br />
Hi Fred,<br />
<br />
I am writing further because it now seems to me that it is of growing<br />
importance to know which dates prove my descendants are Estonian.  Prior =
to<br />
the UK Estonian embassy totally contradicting my view  I was very clear =
it<br />
was citizens living in Estonia prior to 1940.   I have now come across =
the<br />
principle  of "jus sanguinis",  which provides that one is naturally<br />
Estonian if they were citizens during the earlier period of Estonia's<br />
independence, after 1918 (Feb 24th) and before 1940 (June 16th ).  =
Again<br />
opposite to what the UK Embassy said, I think I need to check with them<br =
/>
again, or maybe you already can confirm this for me.<br />
<br />
The principle of "jus sanguinis" as per extract below definitely makes =
my<br />
great-grandparents Estonian and I think my grandfather.  Although in =
the<br />
case of my grandfather it becomes unclear as he lived at sea on a =
merchant<br />
ship, eventually taking permanent residence with my grandmother in =
England<br />
when they married in 1922.  I wonder what it means for his immediate =
right<br />
to claim Estonian nationality if he spent most of his time at sea only<br =
/>
living on soil  (probably lots of foreign territories) when his ship =
docked.<br />
Is he Estonian, does his citizenship come from his parents, or maybe =
not<br />
since at the time of his birth in 1895 he was born to non-Estonians =
i.e..<br />
nobody was Estonian until independence in 1918.<br />
<br />
My great-grandfather Jacob died in Estonia in 1938 and is buried in<br />
Estonian soil, unfortunately all we have to show for this is a church<br />
service document, but maybe this has some information on it that we =
cannot<br />
read, do you think it is of importance, do you think his residence might =
be<br />
the easiest to prove?  Is it easy to find a grave, does it prove anything =
if<br />
it was found?<br />
<br />
=E2=80=9CLatvia and Estonia recognise citizenship according to the =
principle of<br />
jus sanguinis for the persons who held citizenship before 1940 and =
their<br />
descendants. (is a social policy by which nationality or citizenship is =
not<br />
determined by place of birth, but by having an ancestor who is a national =
or<br />
citizen of the state). Persons who arrived after the occupation of 1940 =
and<br />
their descendants may obtain citizenship through naturalisation. This =
policy<br />
affects not only ethnic Russians, but also the descendants of those =
ethnic<br />
Estonians and Latvians who emigrated from these countries before<br />
independence was proclaimed in 1918. Dual citizenship is also not =
allowed,<br />
except for those countries (such as the USA) traditionally holding =
large<br />
numbers of emigrants=E2=80=9D.<br />
<br />
Best Regards<br />
Kim<br />
-----Original Message-----<br />
From: Kim [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:kim@jkraft.co.uk">kim@jkraft.co.uk</a>]<br />
Sent: 07 May 2010 22:49<br />
To: <a href=3D"mailto:info@isik.ee">info@isik.ee</a><br />
Subject: Jurgenson's in Saaremaa<br />
<br />
<br />
Hi Fred,<br />
<br />
Thank you for your time today.<br />
<br />
To Recap... I wish to trace my Estonian family,  and achieve the<br />
following:<br />
<br />
1) Documentation to prove I am of Estonian descent so I can get an<br />
Estonian passport. The passport won't serve any real purpose as I am a<br =
/>
British Citizen and already in the EU, but my grandfather was Estonian and =
I<br />
would like to remember him this way.  The Estonian embassy said I must =
prove<br />
I descend from a resident in Estonia on or after 1940.   Although I =
think<br />
the Estonian Embassy should know best, please can you confirm this is<br />
correct,  because my research leads me to believe they had to be =
resident<br />
before the loss of independence in June of 1940.   For example the =
following<br />
extract is from the official gateway to Estonia website.<br />
<br />
<a target=3D"_blank" =
title=3D"http://estonia.eu/about-estonia/society/citizenship.html" =
href=3D"http://estonia.eu/about-estonia/society/citizenship.html">http://es=
tonia.eu/about-estonia/society/citizenship.html</a><br />
<br />
"After the restoration of Estonia's independence, persons who held<br />
Estonian citizenship before 16 June 1940 and their descendants were<br />
automatically considered to be Estonian citizens. Thus, roughly =
two-thirds<br />
of the 1.5 million Estonian inhabitants restored Estonian citizenship =
in<br />
1992. All other Estonian residents could obtain Estonian citizenship =
through<br />
the naturalisation process. . "<br />
<br />
2) I hope to find living relatives, nobody ever found out what happened<br =
/>
to my grandfather's brothers, but I think they remained in Estonia and<br =
/>
hopefully they have descendants.<br />
<br />
In our discussions you said initial work would typically take 5-6 =
hours,<br />
therefore I authorise you to begin work as soon as you can for upto 6 =
hours.<br />
I wish to use your express service for works complete in around a month,  =
I<br />
understand this will incur an additional cost of 15% on top of your =
normal<br />
fee.   Please begin with the proof needed for my Estonian passport.<br />
<br />
Please provide all correspondence/ reports in English.<br />
<br />
I think the Estonia Embassy in England will require hard copies for the<br =
/>
proof needed for an Estonian passport, but you will know this better than =
me<br />
.  Please let me know the cost of this if it exceeds =C2=A320.  Do they =
require<br />
this in Estonian or English?<br />
<br />
I would also like digital copies of my great-grandparents birth and<br />
marriage certificates if you find them and anything else interesting.<br />
(digital budget =C2=A315.00).<br />
<br />
Aside from the proof needed for the Embassy I don't need anything in<br />
hard-copy format.  Everything can be sent by email ... any report, =
copies<br />
etc.<br />
<br />
Below is a family tree and the only information I have to assist your<br />
search.<br />
<br />
My aunt has all of the documents mentioned below, I will be visiting =
her<br />
within the next few weeks( she is in the north I am in the south) and =
will<br />
be able to send you an image of them if it would help, let me know.<br />
<br />
Best Regards.<br />
<br />
Kimberley Wraith Riddell<br />
18 Fernbrook Road<br />
Caversham<br />
Reading<br />
Berkshire<br />
RG4 7HG<br />
UK<br />
+44 1189 472882<br />
<br />
My grandfather Johan Jurgenson was born in Estonia, he lived on =
Saaremaa<br />
island and became a sailor (ship's carpenter) in the merchant navy. He =
met<br />
my English grandmother when he docked in the port of South Shields in<br />
England.  They married in 1922 and then lived together in England for =
the<br />
rest of their lives.  I don't know the exact date he left Estonia.<br />
<br />
After he left my great-grandparents, Jacob Jurgenson and Elena =
Jurgenson<br />
(Bogdanova) continued to live in Estonia as did my grandfather's six<br />
brothers, one of whom was called Alex. My great-grandparents definitely<br =
/>
lived on Saaremaa island as did Alex, I am not sure if all his brothers<br =
/>
remained there. Alex worked on merchant ships and later so did his =
wife.<br />
<br />
My grandfather was the oldest son, we think Alex was next and the<br />
youngest son we believe was born around 1916 maybe sometime just after =
but<br />
not by much.  That places the births of all seven sons between the =
years<br />
1895 - 1917.  There is a feeling that the family lived on the southern<br =
/>
peninsula of Saaremaa and all children were born there, but we have no<br =
/>
evidence of this so we could be wrong. One of the five unamed sons was =
deaf.<br />
<br />
My great-grandfather Jacob Jurgenson died in 1938 in Estonia, I presume<br =
/>
Saaremaa, as that is where he lived.<br />
<br />
My great-uncle Alex, his wife (Johana ...not sure how to spell it) and<br =
/>
my great-grandmother eventually fled Estonia from the Russians, they left =
in<br />
his fishing boat for Sweden.  They lived the rest of their lives in<br />
Norrkoping.   I do not know the date of their departure.  My =
grandfathers<br />
other five brothers did not leave with them.<br />
<br />
Regarding residency dates, I believe my great-grandmother Elena<br />
Jurgenson was resident before and after 1940, I think she must have left =
in<br />
a boat for Sweden during the second occupation of Russians in 1944, =
because<br />
there was a period when she reverted back to her Russian maiden name<br />
Bogdanova ( or so the story goes ) probably during the 40-41 =
occupation.<br />
No-one is absolutely sure because my family lost touch with them during =
the<br />
second world war until Alex's ship docked in the UK in 1945.  My<br />
great-grandfather Jacob and grandfather Johan were only resident prior =
to<br />
1940.<br />
<br />
In the following years my great-uncle Alex visited my grandparents in<br />
England and in turn they visited him and my great-grandmother in Sweden, =
but<br />
nobody ever heard from the five estranged brothers again.  The last =
address<br />
in Sweden for Alex Jurgenson is haga.gaten.51.602-5, Norrkoping.  After =
he<br />
died his wife Johana moved to gabiclsbugsgat 13, Norrkoping. She is now =
dead<br />
too. They had no children. They both died before Estonia became =
independent<br />
again.<br />
<br />
My aunt (English) went to Estonia a few years after it regained<br />
independence, and attempted to find relatives but was unsuccessful.  She =
did<br />
not seek any help to do this, so it is understandable that she did not<br =
/>
succeed when over fifty years had passed by.<br />
<br />
My aunt has my grandfather's birth certificate but it's in a language<br />
foreign to us so we cannot get understand any information on it other =
than<br />
his date of birth, 1st October 1885 and that it was issued in 1919.<br />
<br />
We have an order of service from my great-grandmother's funeral,  it<br />
states she was born in Torgu, Estonia on the 26th June 1874, she died =
in<br />
Sweden.<br />
<br />
My great-grandfather Jacob died in 13th Feb 1938 in Estonia we have a<br />
burial service (it says matmine ) which also has the word Matmifel on it, =
I<br />
thought that might be a place but I cannot find any parish or manor =
with<br />
that name, so maybe it means something else.<br />
<br />

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